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Old 11-28-2012, 11:51 AM   #61
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Wow, that's the exact opposite of the O2's audience. Brazilians really don't like tennis that much. If ATP has balls, they will move this event in a more welcoming country, despite the fact that Brazilians came up with the idea. But that's another matter, probably duong will be right.
From everything I read Brazil is very fond of tennis, in general south America seems to be the part of the world most fond of tennis, tickets for Fed's exhos were sold very quickly and there are many challengers and futures tournaments in Brazil and quite many young players emerging.

I don't think it's the problem.

But I do think that there's a real problem in the recognition of the challenger tour in the public, and that's a big part of the reason why the prize money has not increased for long and even more worrying, the number of challengers keeps on declining.

There may be other topics more specific to that tournament, like the fact that the arena is very big
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:14 PM   #62
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
I think this picture yesterday during the match between Ungur and Ramirez-Hidalgo (3rd match of the day) is enough to explain Bellucci's invitation, and from what I read above the ticket prices are cheap !

Anyway, probably this event will disappear in a few years' time ...
Yes, in Bellucci's match (evening) the public was better, but during all day the public was weak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Wow, that's the exact opposite of the O2's audience. Brazilians really don't like tennis that much. If ATP has balls, they will move this event in a more welcoming country, despite the fact that Brazilians came up with the idea. But that's another matter, probably duong will be right.
Here we have the sponsor's problem again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
From everything I read Brazil is very fond of tennis, in general south America seems to be the part of the world most fond of tennis, tickets for Fed's exhos were sold very quickly and there are many challengers and futures tournaments in Brazil and quite many young players emerging.

I don't think it's the problem.

But I do think that there's a real problem in the recognition of the challenger tour in the public, and that's a big part of the reason why the prize money has not increased for long and even more worrying, the number of challengers keeps on declining.

There may be other topics more specific to that tournament, like the fact that the arena is very big
The true is there are many people who like tennis here, but just about the top players, Davis Cup and sometimes when brazilian guys are in play. This explain the empty stadium of challenger finals during the day. The arena has 10,000 of capacity.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:34 PM   #63
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Surprise!!
Brazilians are the only one defending the biased WC phantom

Adding quality to the post: The idea is good, the CTF gives out a lot of money and points, and so does the WTF... I don't see the ATP inventing a 7+ WC rule for the WTF even though the organizer may not get a local star...

We appreciate the iniciative from Brazil but it becomes dull and pointless to have a Masters out of the best Challenger players of the year and then bring a Top 50 player who hardly plays on Challenger just to vulture points.

IMO should be something like Top 7 spots + most winner of ranking points in Challengers from Brazil or something like that so as to increase the chances of those actually bothering to make the trip to the country, making it more attractive for the local tour (bigger names, people having the chance to see upcoming stars more often, and then having a player that was successful on Brazil taking part of the event)
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:52 PM   #64
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by FiBeR View Post
Surprise!!
Brazilians are the only one defending the biased WC phantom
I read nobody defending it, only people explaining why it happened, for economic/sponsor reasons, that's all.

All the people who create a kind of "ideal CTF" from their mind make me laugh as it's a pure mind construction. Reality is harder to deal with than dreams.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:31 PM   #65
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Fiber t thinks it all comes to nationalism, but Argentina does nothing to promote the challengers better than Brazil so he can say nothing about it

"surprise". lol

Who the hell cares about Brazil mate or is defending the formula of the tournament, we are only trying to explain why its ridiculous to attack the organization of the tournament when it its only happening because of them. I dont see any challenger tour finals before 2011 when KochTavares organized it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:21 PM   #66
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by Ilovetheblues_86 View Post
Fiber t thinks it all comes to nationalism, but Argentina does nothing to promote the challengers better than Brazil so he can say nothing about it

"surprise". lol

Who the hell cares about Brazil mate or is defending the formula of the tournament, we are only trying to explain why its ridiculous to attack the organization of the tournament when it its only happening because of them. I dont see any challenger tour finals before 2011 when KochTavares organized it.
I wish you would really really know about what Argentina does for the region and what Brazil does...

I could go on for hours, if you want me to tell you in details, pm me and give me a call.

Brazil only thinks for itself in the region, bought an ATP500 tournament in a 4 week calendar making it 5 tournaments in a packed 4-week tour, and will drag down every tournament of the Latin American claycourt swing into hardcourts starting in december 2014 valid for the 2015 season (this is together with Paris Bercy final call to change, but the fact that BRA bought the ATP500 is part of the final push that made this happen).

There will be a meeting in january at the Aus Open about it, but it is almost sure that the L.A. swing is changing to december, the season will end in october and the 2015 season will start first days of december in south america. thank you very much

Moreover, regarding COSAT level BRA compromised in working hand in hand with the whole region (COSAT = Confederacion Sudamericana de Tenis) and ended up doing tournaments whenever they wanted violating the calendar compromises done in 2011's meeting on Women Tennis. This is: all the presidents of federations of south america, or their representatives got together and decided to unite efforts so as to have a good competitive women's circuit, compromising their federations to organize more tournaments and to have a full season calendar...

Argentina is the main country behind the organization of the Women Tennis circuit in S.A. (25K and 10K level). I know the person who is constantly calling the Federations of the region to work hand in hand so as to promote and make a competitive calendar in the women's circuit, but guess which country decides to put 25K in the same weeks other tournaments are held in the region where there are weeks where no activity is held and players have to leave to europe or north america to get some competition?

That's right, the "we got money so f-ck you all" Brazil. I am happy you guys have money but if there is a push from the whole region to develop as one, just don't mess with everybody elses' interests.

Give me a call and I will tell you so much more about what is being done at COSAT level and what is Argentina's role in men and women and what Brazil's been doing for the last few years to screw every single efford to develop a united force as a region.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
I read nobody defending it, only people explaining why it happened, for economic/sponsor reasons, that's all.

All the people who create a kind of "ideal CTF" from their mind make me laugh as it's a pure mind construction. Reality is harder to deal with than dreams.
maybe you need glasses and you lack the ability to dream... hence, the posibility of change
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:13 PM   #67
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Thomaz Bellucci had withdrawn from this tournament (via Tennis Alternative twitter). Now let the best player win this.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:33 PM   #68
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiBeR View Post
I wish you would really really know about what Argentina does for the region and what Brazil does...

I could go on for hours, if you want me to tell you in details, pm me and give me a call.

Brazil only thinks for itself in the region, bought an ATP500 tournament in a 4 week calendar making it 5 tournaments in a packed 4-week tour, and will drag down every tournament of the Latin American claycourt swing into hardcourts starting in december 2014 valid for the 2015 season (this is together with Paris Bercy final call to change, but the fact that BRA bought the ATP500 is part of the final push that made this happen).

There will be a meeting in january at the Aus Open about it, but it is almost sure that the L.A. swing is changing to december, the season will end in october and the 2015 season will start first days of december in south america. thank you very much

Moreover, regarding COSAT level BRA compromised in working hand in hand with the whole region (COSAT = Confederacion Sudamericana de Tenis) and ended up doing tournaments whenever they wanted violating the calendar compromises done in 2011's meeting on Women Tennis. This is: all the presidents of federations of south america, or their representatives got together and decided to unite efforts so as to have a good competitive women's circuit, compromising their federations to organize more tournaments and to have a full season calendar...

Argentina is the main country behind the organization of the Women Tennis circuit in S.A. (25K and 10K level). I know the person who is constantly calling the Federations of the region to work hand in hand so as to promote and make a competitive calendar in the women's circuit, but guess which country decides to put 25K in the same weeks other tournaments are held in the region where there are weeks where no activity is held and players have to leave to europe or north america to get some competition?

That's right, the "we got money so f-ck you all" Brazil. I am happy you guys have money but if there is a push from the whole region to develop as one, just don't mess with everybody elses' interests.

Give me a call and I will tell you so much more about what is being done at COSAT level and what is Argentina's role in men and women and what Brazil's been doing for the last few years to screw every single efford to develop a united force as a region.
I was just stating the fact that the challenger tour finals was a brazilian idea, and that they believed Bellucci was an asset necessary to its creation.
If we go to discuss how much Brazil is trying to create new tournaments without respecting the south american decisions, its obvious Argentina has much more interesting ideas, but we all know you dont have much $$ to create wealthy tournaments. Brazil is a mess of a country, and the fact we speak portuguese and have been a colony of Portugal and not Spain is the major cause why there is not a culture of uniting ourselves with the spanish speaking countries.

The fact you are annoyed with the fact Brazil is screwing South American with their own interests dont take away the fact that if it wasnt for KochTavares the Challenger Tour wouldnt even exist.

It would be great that, in this situation, Brazil could coordinate better the organization of tournaments, but the fact is that, having a lot of sponsors right now and money to invest like never in the history, and being this money almost coming from Brazilians private businees, they will be interested only in Brazil's desire to have important tournaments in the country, and South America will have to get used to that the same way, I dont Know, Mexico has to get used to being a neighbour of United States. Like they say: " so far away from God, so close to the USA"

I dont agree with the fact they want to have Federer Nadal and Djokovic playing in Brazil, and I was very happy with the Brasil Open, but at the same time, we dont know how much this could benefit all south american tennis in the long time, for example, by stimulating the construction of hard courts in the continent.

If a country has interests of becoming a powerhouse in some sport, they will always observe their own interests rather the neighbours. I dont agree with this, but I dont think is fair to attack the Challenger Tour Finals when its actually the best thing the brazilians did for the tour recently.

Like I said, I hope that in the future the Challenger Tour will be held with 8 top ch players in a different country, but the initiative of this tournament will be in the hands of brazilian organizers that made it possible.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:56 PM   #69
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Thomaz Bellucci had withdrawn from this tournament (via Tennis Alternative twitter). Now let the best player win this.
Yep, a bursitis on left shoulder. He was feeling that since last week.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:59 PM   #70
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

I am not mad at Brazil for screwing the whole region which I could, but I am at peace with it. It is something that is already done, I think it is a lil too much bringing a top 50 player, wasting chances to help uprising stars (even brasilians uprising stars) in the interests of helping out one player that has nothing to do with challengers at this stage of his career. Come on, you don't need to be wise to realize that Bellucci doesn't need to play with challenger players, but that guy born in 1993 from your country that is a good prospect could really use the chance for example.

Money makes the world go round, but as much as it could help, it can harm, as proven on my post above. Not only it is harming the whole region (which is quite selfish) but these mindless money investment are not doing you guys any good either.

I only said what I said because you stated that Argentina did nothing to promote the challengers better than Brazil and that Argentina can say nothing. I was just giving you examples in which Argentina is doing much more valuable stuff for the interests of tennis (tennis players and fans) which do not require so much money, but just criteria. But of course, these things dont come out in the papers because these are the silent workers

Also, Argentina raised from 1 to 3 the amount of challengers this season, and next year there will be at least 5 (got news yesterday about Guillermo Coria wanting to bring another Challenger to the country, in his club in Rosario, so it could go up to 6).

What I do feel is that Brazil is not contributing or making sense. It is screwing up all the region in some way, yes, and you have to realize you are also screwing yourselves as Brazilians are as much of claycourters as the next door neighbour in Latin America...

You have a tournament (the Challenger finals) on HC, and are pushing the most valuable tournaments of every country of the region into a shitty part of the year where every player is burnt, tired, and it is quite anticlimatic on a surface that is not ideal for any of us (the ATP tour moving to Dec) just out of greed.

It is a loss not only to Brazil but to everyone in South America. As I said, you can have all the money, but what you really need is criteria cos to me, at this point, every push Brazil's been doing lately isn't even doing any favour to any of us, including your federation.

EDIT: your speech sounds a bit to me the way Argentina thought about itself in the 90s, when we had a lot of money and people even believed they were kind of europeans or first world .. it is good to dream, but also to have your feet on the ground. To bring a crazy example, I see no use of having a grass Masters 1000 in Brazil just because you can... if there is money, there should be investments in generating good prospects, players, coaches and becoming the best of the region, becoming the leaders of the region tenniswise. Then be the moral authority. Argentina has flaws, but now that I work close to the federation, I understand what are they doing and how they see tennis... which is light years away from Europe, but still ahead of Brazil, in the good and respectful way.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:25 AM   #71
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

There are no uprising star in Brazil right now, Clezar (1992) is 220th in the rankings and dont deserve the place, yet.
Fernandes (1993) is 600th and Joao Souza (1988) is old enough to get a place by his own. The best challenger players of Brazil right now were the "oldies" Alves and Dutra Silva. Maybe they could have taken that place, but the only player brazilian people know is Bellucci.

Brazilian people like tennis, but they are gloryhunters mostly, they only care about winners like Guga or Ayrton Senna, and even Bellucci is very criticized. The fact they are trying to change the surface to hard is to try to bring the best players to play here.

Of course we can continue to have the tradition of argentinian tennis dominating the south american scenario but argentinian tennis cant blame only Brazil if its revealing less talents . Also, I would like to see Brazil with less claycourters in the next generations. I think the ideal countries right now in terms of creating all court players are probably the "Napoleonic ones" - France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Poland.

Arent you tired to see mostly claycourters for argentina, brazil, chile etc?
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:35 AM   #72
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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You have a tournament (the Challenger finals) on HC, and are pushing the most valuable tournaments of every country of the region into a shitty part of the year where every player is burnt, tired, and it is quite anticlimatic on a surface that is not ideal for any of us (the ATP tour moving to Dec) just out of greed.
IMO it will be a good move for south american ATPs, without the competition of other tournaments and on a surface that would attract some top players.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:59 AM   #73
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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IMO it will be a good move for south american ATPs, without the competition of other tournaments and on a surface that would attract some top players.
Problem is.. the owner of the ATP Copa Claro (I think he is puertorrican) claimed that Europe protested saying it is not fair only South America will have a tour in decemeber, so they are pushing to have tournaments in europe as well during the L.A. swing.

Picture this: early december, tired of a tough year, having to start one right over... Will you bother making the trip from home when having tournaments in Europe to go to South America then to Australia?

This move will kill most of the international tournaments (I am not against this.. as I see it, it brings logic to the south american tour, or at least the argentinian tour: you start with Futures in january-february, then move on to challengers in september, october .. or halfway through the year, and you go to the ATPs in december.. thinking of an evolution of players, I kind of like this..)

To me, I am happy it will be like Monroe Doctrine: America for americans

Ive heard from the owner of the tournament today that the idea was to bring good players to the tour.. meaning uniting efforts from every tournament held and instead of having 1 good star each, having e.g. 3 that will make the trip... if you understand what I mean.

The schedule is a fan killa, but thinking of the young ones, to me it makes sense.. only problem is that most of the low tournaments (Futures) are clay. If you have to play well on clay, then excell on hard something is not alright.

What I want to point out is that changes are good, as long as there is a follow thru or part of a plan. Impossing hardcourt just because "players need to learn how to adapt" but then do not teach or train on hardcourts, or have a consistent futures/challenger points in the country is a bit of pointless. We have del Potro, but I dont think it is fair to benefit one or two players when everybody else is a claycourter...
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:20 AM   #74
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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There are no uprising star in Brazil right now, Clezar (1992) is 220th in the rankings and dont deserve the place, yet.
Fernandes (1993) is 600th and Joao Souza (1988) is old enough to get a place by his own. The best challenger players of Brazil right now were the "oldies" Alves and Dutra Silva. Maybe they could have taken that place, but the only player brazilian people know is Bellucci.

Brazilian people like tennis, but they are gloryhunters mostly, they only care about winners like Guga or Ayrton Senna, and even Bellucci is very criticized. The fact they are trying to change the surface to hard is to try to bring the best players to play here.

Of course we can continue to have the tradition of argentinian tennis dominating the south american scenario but argentinian tennis cant blame only Brazil if its revealing less talents . Also, I would like to see Brazil with less claycourters in the next generations. I think the ideal countries right now in terms of creating all court players are probably the "Napoleonic ones" - France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Poland.

Arent you tired to see mostly claycourters for argentina, brazil, chile etc?
you are way too hard with Clezar and Fernandes. They are the best youngsters from Brazil... They should get a chance. I will be happy if Schwartzman gets a WC for the ATP Copa Claro (most likely) and he deserves it to me...

I dont think Argentina has lost talent. I think that it is impossible to produce consistently top tens like we did 10 years ago because that was one golden generation that comes once in a lifetime.

There is a statistic in which in every decade since the 70s, Argentina produced at least 1 player to break into the Top Ten.. from Vilas in the 70s to Monaco in the 2010s.. Vilas, Clerc, Mancini, Jaite, Coria, Nalbandian, Gaudio, Cańas, Puerta, del Potro, Monaco..

we are working to get more players in the top. If you want to see less claycourters, you should build a hardcourt programme and adapt it. I train in the same place that Patricio Heras (1989) trains, and there are claycourts and hardcourts in a 50/50 rate. Sometimes I practise serve on hardcourts then go to clay to work on my game.. The homogenization has done marvels to this cause, the problem is that the change Brazil is imposing is not part of a consistent plan...not even for Brazilians cos (as far as I know) nothing is changing in the academies.

If you dont work with this change, you re gonna have a baaad time my friend
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:13 AM   #75
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by FiBeR View Post
Brazil only thinks for itself in the region, bought an ATP500 tournament in a 4 week calendar making it 5 tournaments in a packed 4-week tour, and will drag down every tournament of the Latin American claycourt swing into hardcourts starting in december 2014 valid for the 2015 season (this is together with Paris Bercy final call to change, but the fact that BRA bought the ATP500 is part of the final push that made this happen).

There will be a meeting in january at the Aus Open about it, but it is almost sure that the L.A. swing is changing to december, the season will end in october and the 2015 season will start first days of december in south america. thank you very much
I suggest that you write those very interesting news in the thread about the ATP calendar.

Here it is just off-topic imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiBeR View Post
maybe you need glasses and you lack the ability to dream... hence, the posibility of change
I wear glasses, and you don't know me one tiny little bit. I actually dream a lot but my dreams are not about challenger tour finals and I don't think you would be interested in them
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Last edited by duong : 11-29-2012 at 03:12 PM.
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