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Old 11-26-2012, 06:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by StatRacket View Post
The outcome of these finals could be important to the tour next year. Some success for Bellucci will get him in seeding range for the Australian Open and make him a commitment player for next year.
seeding : yes

commitment : no (the list of commitment players for 2013 is based on the rankings just after Paris-Bercy tournament)

On topic : why is the event in Sao Paulo ? Because that's where there was a sponsor with money and a place to welcome the event for God's sake, that's economy !

And Bellucci happens to be sponsored by the event's sponsor

Apart from that, the idea was a marketting one, that it would bring some light on the challenger Tour, it seems that they partly succeeded for that from what I read on that forum

Personally I don't like that event for many reasons, one of them, maybe most personal original one, being that I don't like people thinking that there are two tours, a challenger one and a "main tour" one : I think this idea is a gross exaggeration, as I always say players between rank 50 and 100 play a mix of both tours and it's not fair to make such a distinction imo (which also leads some to say that players who have success in challengers have an unfair inflated ranking, which is not fair either imo and very downgrading for challengers)
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by erickmartins View Post
I'm a hardcore Bellucci supporter, a brazilian, and I think this wildcard is an outrage. Just think how unfair it is to the first guy not to qualify to the tournament. Besides that, Bellucci is not at the same level as the others.
Bellucci has played this event at least once, last year he did not do that well, maybe wasn't that motivated, so he might not play to his level, probably uses it for practice more than anything.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:01 PM   #33
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
The format was not imposed, so the Brazilians inventors could have hosted a special Challenger Finals with 32 players instead of 8, and the same prize pot.
the format was somehow imposed, as it was all part of the marketting idea to make "something like the WTF".

And from what I read, the event is played in a big arena, and they didn't have enough spectators.

Hence the Bellucci wild-card.

it's all logical : it all comes from the initial concept in an economic context
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:02 PM   #34
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
seeding : yes

commitment : no (the list of commitment players for 2013 is based on the rankings just after Paris-Bercy tournament)

On topic : why is the event in Sao Paulo ? Because that's where there was a sponsor with money and a place to welcome the event for God's sake, that's economy !

And Bellucci happens to be sponsored by the event's sponsor

Apart from that, the idea was a marketting one, that it would bring some light on the challenger Tour, it seems that they partly succeeded for that from what I read on that forum

Personally I don't like that event for many reasons, one of them, maybe most personal original one, being that I don't like people thinking that there are two tours, a challenger one and a "main tour" one : I think this idea is a gross exaggeration, as I always say players between rank 50 and 100 play a mix of both tours and it's not fair to make such a distinction imo (which also leads some to say that players who have success in challengers have an unfair inflated ranking, which is not fair either imo and very downgrading for challengers)
Why, there are 2 tours.

So what if they play both tours, if they earn enough points on the CH tour then it proves that they are quite good at CH's and should be rewarded for it, yet not quite good enough for the main tour.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Bellucci can't lose this competition
Bellucci only won 2 matches out of 4 last year (lost to Sela and Andi Beck, both former top-35 players by the way ... and Sela is still a big "challenger vulture" although he also had success on the main tour, final in Beijing, R16 in Wimbledon ... )
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:07 PM   #36
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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So what if they play both tours, if they earn enough points on the CH tour then it proves that they are quite good at CH's and should be rewarded for it, yet not quite good enough for the main tour.
what you say in bold is something which is much overrated on MTF, even more than the separation of both Tours.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:09 PM   #37
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Lets be honest, go check the official site, the tournament is a partnership between the Brazilian Federation and ATP. The biggest interest in making this tournament is still the brazil crew who got the sponsors. If ATP wants to make it a fair tournament, they must search for another country that wants to make the tournament with the 8 best players, but I dont think any country wants to host it, so the challenger players should thank Brazil this tournament as a bonus, and not complain like Klizan did last year.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:13 PM   #38
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
as for stebe, it's not like he had such a fantastic 2011... he's just a young guy gathering experience, it seems he just peaked in the challenger tour finals week with the level
Stebe has had a lot of injuries this year but he's showed since then that he's talented enough to compete with the big guys imo.

But last year yes his rankings did improve a lot thanks to weak-field Asian challengers.

What didn't look fair then still allowed a talented young player to emerge.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:14 PM   #39
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by Ilovetheblues_86 View Post
Lets be honest, go check the official site, the tournament is a partnership between the Brazilian Federation and ATP. The biggest interest in making this tournament is still the brazil crew who got the sponsors. If ATP wants to make it a fair tournament, they must search for another country that wants to make the tournament with the 8 best players, but I dont think any country wants to host it, so the challenger players should thank Brazil this tournament as a bonus, and not complain like Klizan did last year.
exactly, that's economy, there was an opportunity and they did it, that's all

and it may well not last long, yes

Why was it endorsed by the ATP ? because it helped to improve the visibility then the economy of the challenger tournaments (and it seemed partly effective for that from all of the gossipings on that challenger finals although of course it's aonly a very small marketting step on the whole challenger economy problem)
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:18 PM   #40
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by erickmartins View Post
I'm a hardcore Bellucci supporter, a brazilian, and I think this wildcard is an outrage. Just think how unfair it is to the first guy not to qualify to the tournament. Besides that, Bellucci is not at the same level as the others.
actually many players did withdraw and the participants are not at all the top-8 from the rankings
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:36 PM   #41
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
what you say in bold is something which is much overrated on MTF, even more than the separation of both Tours.
Well then care to explain as to why this is, instead of just pointing it out.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:39 PM   #42
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
Bellucci only won 2 matches out of 4 last year (lost to Sela and Andi Beck, both former top-35 players by the way ... and Sela is still a big "challenger vulture" although he also had success on the main tour, final in Beijing, R16 in Wimbledon ... )
Sela and Beck are both twice the indoor players Pella, Ungur, RRH, Bedene, Elias or Lorenzi will ever be
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

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Well then care to explain as to why this is, instead of just pointing it out.
most of the time players need first to play in challengers to improve their rankings enough to play on the main tour ... and quite often they havce success there.

As for "overrated" you know I've read MTF for 4 years now and I've read so many opinions of people supposedly well-informed (yes of course Filo V, but also Coocoocachoo now Martijn, or Nathaliia) who said that this or that guy was "only good for challengers" and not for main tour ... and that guy happened to surprise many people on the main Tour : Dodig, Rosol who both spent such a long time in early rounds of challengers you know (and Rosol was already the same kind of players according to many people I read), Golubev who was supposed according to Coocachoo only to be able to reach top-100 by luck or something like that and won Hamburg and Kuala Lumpur defeating very good guys, Bellucci in his time who had improved his ranking only through challengers then of couse was considered as a kind of "vulture" although the name didn't exist, Zeballos the same but still surprised everybody by reaching St Petersburg final and a few other good results on the main tour following his ones in challengers, Bogomolov, Janowicz was "Polish Querrey" for Nathaliia, Albert Ramos, Lukas Lacko

... so many guys you know I remember in my early years on MTF I trusted what these people said to predict a player's future then I realized that they were very often wrong (also in the other way actually predicting a great future to a player who never did it )

a player "only good for challengers" I don't believe much in that now : I rather look at their results, if they manage to improve or not Also tennis now is very physical and mental more than technical, and the differences in tennis levels are not as big as some people say, and when players get in a streak of confidence, they can usually follow it on the main tour.

As I said Lorenzi isn't just a challenger player, he's the only real vulture I know (with Sela) looking for every challenegr with a weak field to get a better ranking ... and still look at his results against supposedly "good players", he often makes very good results ! (of course the mention of his set won to Nadal on clay can be helpful for the evidence )
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:34 PM   #44
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Here's a thought: Just invite the top8 challenger tour players, award them point etc.
After round robin matches from Saturday through Thursday, semis on Friday and the final on Friday, we'll crown the new Challenger tour champion.


But wait, that's not it yet.


Just when the winner thinks he's done playing, things will get interesting.
Smoke fills the arena, lights dim and when the smoke is gone and lights are back on, there he is.
"Tomorrow, double or nothing, same time, same place, be there."
Yes, on Sunday, there will be the final battle against the fearsome end boss Thomaz Bellucci!
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: In my opinion, the Challenger Tour Finals should be...

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
most of the time players need first to play in challengers to improve their rankings enough to play on the main tour ... and quite often they havce success there.

As for "overrated" you know I've read MTF for 4 years now and I've read so many opinions of people supposedly well-informed (yes of course Filo V, but also Coocoocachoo now Martijn, or Nathaliia) who said that this or that guy was "only good for challengers" and not for main tour ... and that guy happened to surprise many people on the main Tour : Dodig, Rosol who both spent such a long time in early rounds of challengers you know (and Rosol was already the same kind of players according to many people I read), Golubev who was supposed according to Coocachoo only to be able to reach top-100 by luck or something like that and won Hamburg and Kuala Lumpur defeating very good guys, Bellucci in his time who had improved his ranking only through challengers then of couse was considered as a kind of "vulture" although the name didn't exist, Zeballos the same but still surprised everybody by reaching St Petersburg final and a few other good results on the main tour following his ones in challengers, Bogomolov, Janowicz was "Polish Querrey" for Nathaliia, Albert Ramos, Lukas Lacko

... so many guys you know I remember in my early years on MTF I trusted what these people said to predict a player's future then I realized that they were very often wrong (also in the other way actually predicting a great future to a player who never did it )

a player "only good for challengers" I don't believe much in that now : I rather look at their results, if they manage to improve or not Also tennis now is very physical and mental more than technical, and the differences in tennis levels are not as big as some people say, and when players get in a streak of confidence, they can usually follow it on the main tour.

As I said Lorenzi isn't just a challenger player, he's the only real vulture I know (with Sela) looking for every challenegr with a weak field to get a better ranking ... and still look at his results against supposedly "good players", he often makes very good results ! (of course the mention of his set won to Nadal on clay can be helpful for the evidence )
Alot of the players you mentioned are now back to their normal CH level.

I agree that wrong predictions are made here far too often, most based on hype, which is obviously not the right way to do it.

Well you kind of defeated your argument that players can improve and keep improving and do well on the main tour if they are on a confidence streak, then they will go back to their normal CH level after the streak is over, so they really are CH level players in the end.

As for vulturing, it only really exists to a small degree, because players drop tourney results as soon as they get another one, it sort of maybe exists at CH level though.
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