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Old 11-02-2012, 04:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

I actually like counter-attacking soccer but offensive tennis

Maybe it's just me but I find defending in soccer takes a lot more skill than defending in tennis
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuzzahLovah View Post
I disagree. Most tennis fans appreciate point construction, only on MTF where mouth breathers rule do they prefer bashing and always root for giants over little guys.
Nope. I can think of a number of college players in my social network who dismiss a guy like Murray's play as little more than "pushing". Mostly because the ability to outright hit through your opponent is often admired most in a competitive setting of the sport.

Although, come to think of it, these guys might post on MTF.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:24 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
Nope. I can think of a number of college players in my social network who dismiss a guy like Murray's play as little more than "pushing". Mostly because the ability to outright hit through your opponent is often admired most in a competitive setting of the sport.

Although, come to think of it, these guys might post on MTF.
This is anecdotal. All the most popular players in tennis at the moment rely on point construction, not bashing. This might be because of the better success though.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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Originally Posted by MuzzahLovah View Post
This is anecdotal.
And? So is saying that such thinking is restricted to MTF. You're obviously basing that off of your experiences here and elsewhere.

Quote:
All the most popular players in tennis at the moment rely on point construction, not bashing. This might be because of the better success though.
Right, which is why I specifically referred to tactics from a more defensive-oriented standpoint, the ones most commonly, and stupidly, viewed as "pushing".
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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Originally Posted by The Bulldog View Post
I love tacticians in tennis. I appreciate all the styles in all sports.

My favourite player in golf is Nicolas Colsaerts, who is the longest off the tee, equivalent to someone like Raonic in tennis. However I like a lot of guys with other styles, too.

So really, I don't judge people on what gamestyle they play, but it if they execute it in a pleasing manner. For instance, Simon is regarded as an ugly player, but I love the way he excites his style. He really toys with his opponents.
Yep, Simon is regarded as the king of pushers, even though he's a much more complete player and volleyer than most of the tour. They call him a pusher but he'll routinely go winners as soon as his opponents are lulled in to a complacent rhythm. Drives people crazy, I love watching it.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #21
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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Originally Posted by BackhandDTL View Post
And? So is saying that such thinking is restricted to MTF. You're obviously basing that off of your experiences here and elsewhere.



Right, which is why I specifically referred to tactics from a more defensive-oriented standpoint, the ones most commonly, and stupidly, viewed as "pushing".
No, I based the first sentence off the second part. It logically follows, if tennis is a sport where tactics are hated, the most popular players (in terms of endorsements and numbers of facebook fans etc) would be bashers, and that empirically not true.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

People tend to like creativity, which is evident in the games of some players of all styles. I wouldn't say there are a subset of players called 'creative players' as opposed to hard-hitters, counter-attack, serve/volley etc... Rather, that there are more and less creative instances of each type. Now, as for what constitutes creativity in tennis, that's a tricky question.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuzzahLovah View Post
No, I based the first sentence off the second part. It logically follows, if tennis is a sport where tactics are hated, the most popular players (in terms of endorsements and numbers of facebook fans etc) would be bashers, and that empirically not true.
Not necessarily, as that reasoning doesn't accounting for these same players' success, nor their subsequent fame and marketing relative to the ball bashers behind them.

They're oft-liked more than any other player, even similarly versatile or tactically capable players.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:48 PM   #24
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

That's less about kind of sport, and more about people discussed with.
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Old 11-02-2012, 05:20 PM   #25
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

It's not as black and white as most MTFers pretend it is. Many topics here lead you to believe players are either total pushers or "mindless ballbashers" that only hit the ball as hard as you can. It's indeed more about creativity. Who tries to win under their own power and who tries to only make the opponent fail? Players like Dolgopolov or Florian Mayer are still offensive and creative without being ballbashers and most of the forum like them for example.

who said you have to be defensive to be a tactician? heard about offensive tactics? the scourge of tennis is that defense has become so dominant that posters here even make threads here like tactican = playing defense


Playing defense is not high regarded in any sport. Defense players are less paid, less big stars. The stars are the offense. In soccer the forwards like Messi, Ronaldo, Zlatan are huge stars.

In american football the quarter backs are the stars. I'm no expert but I know their role is to generate the offense and setup the plays. I could go on. Players in offensive roles are regarded higher for a reason. That's what fans go to the matches to see.


Sport is about entertainment. Seeing someone play against a "wall" or even seeing two "walls" play against each other isn't much fun. Just like watching total defense in any sport
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

I don't accept the terms of the question. Tactics & ball-bashing aren't opposites. If a player "mindlessly" pushes back every ball he's not employing or more to the point varying his tactics either. Neither ball-bashing nor pushing are tactics: they are styles of play and you could loosely call them strategies. Tactics are when you adjust your strategy according to how it's working, depending on what your opponent is doing and how well your individual shots are working. If your strategy - usual style of play - is to go for big 1st serves & for whatever reason you keep missing them, it's a tactical adjustment to slice the 1st serve more to get it in. The more you can change your game, the more tactical you are able to be; in other words, you need versatility to be tactical. And by & large the most versatile players - the obvious example today being Federer - are the most admired, & their admirers get most frustrated when they feel the players aren't using their versatility to adjust their tactics.

The tendency that the OP really has in mind, of preferring players with attacking rather than defensive strategies - which is seen in most sports -, is a separate question. You can be versatile and tactically creative using either kind of strategy. If Federer is a creative attacking player, I'd say Murray was a creative defensive player.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
I don't accept the terms of the question. Tactics & ball-bashing aren't opposites. If a player "mindlessly" pushes back every ball he's not employing or more to the point varying his tactics either. Neither ball-bashing nor pushing are tactics: they are styles of play and you could loosely call them strategies. Tactics are when you adjust your strategy according to how it's working, depending on what your opponent is doing and how well your individual shots are working. If your strategy - usual style of play - is to go for big 1st serves & for whatever reason you keep missing them, it's a tactical adjustment to slice the 1st serve more to get it in. The more you can change your game, the more tactical you are able to be; in other words, you need versatility to be tactical. And by & large the most versatile players - the obvious example today being Federer - are the most admired, & their admirers get most frustrated when they feel the players aren't using their versatility to adjust their tactics.

The tendency that the OP really has in mind, of preferring players with attacking rather than defensive strategies - which is seen in most sports -, is a separate question. You can be versatile and tactically creative using either kind of strategy. If Federer is a creative attacking player, I'd say Murray was a creative defensive player.
And Murray is hated and called a pusher, despite being tactical.

Del-Potro is not creative, and ballbashes, but everyone loves him.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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Originally Posted by out_grinder View Post
And Murray is hated and called a pusher, despite being tactical.

Del-Potro is not creative, and ballbashes, but everyone loves him.
Yes. But Murray is not hated for being tactical, he is hated for being defensive.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:17 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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THIS.

Clearly in all sports, the ones who attack and try to win are regarded higher than the ones who defend (pushers in tennis).

For example, in football, the team that is most acclaimed and admired in the world (Barcelona) is clearly an attacking team and when they lost to Chelsea the last Champions League or to Inter in 2010 most of the football fans were angry because they were defeated by teams who "parked the bus" and barely set foot on the opposite box.
Lol tbh when you're playing against Barcelona basically the only viable tactic you can follow is "parking the bus". If you play full on attack against their all star team you're probably gonna lose big time.
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:18 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is tennis the only sport where tacticians are hated?

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Originally Posted by MaxPower View Post
It's not as black and white as most MTFers pretend it is. Many topics here lead you to believe players are either total pushers or "mindless ballbashers" that only hit the ball as hard as you can. It's indeed more about creativity. Who tries to win under their own power and who tries to only make the opponent fail? Players like Dolgopolov or Florian Mayer are still offensive and creative without being ballbashers and most of the forum like them for example.

who said you have to be defensive to be a tactician? heard about offensive tactics? the scourge of tennis is that defense has become so dominant that posters here even make threads here like tactican = playing defense


Playing defense is not high regarded in any sport. Defense players are less paid, less big stars. The stars are the offense. In soccer the forwards like Messi, Ronaldo, Zlatan are huge stars.

In american football the quarter backs are the stars. I'm no expert but I know their role is to generate the offense and setup the plays. I could go on. Players in offensive roles are regarded higher for a reason. That's what fans go to the matches to see.


Sport is about entertainment. Seeing someone play against a "wall" or even seeing two "walls" play against each other isn't much fun. Just like watching total defense in any sport
This is all very well said. I made the same points back in the "...More enjoyable: A ballbasher or defensive tactician?" thread. People tend to blur the lines in suggesting that defense and tactics are synonymous. In actuality, perfectly legitimate and plausible tactics and mindless ball-striking exist on both sides of the spectrum.

As to the underlying question of which style is more appeasing, it's true that offense is generally favored in most sports. In American football, I love the Saints, but they're a very defensively strong team so their efforts don't receive the same praise as most other teams. It seems to be the way things are, and it's translatable in tennis as well, I think.
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