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Old 10-30-2012, 12:38 PM   #61
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

Attempting to put a value on Federer and Nadal's forehands without considering the degree to which their unmatched footwork contributes is a task bound for failure.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:44 PM   #62
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Del Potro
4. Djokovic
5. Berdych
6. Tsonga
7. Ferrer
8. Tipsarevic
9. Murray
10. Monaco
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:51 PM   #63
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

Quote:
Originally Posted by stebs View Post
Attempting to put a value on Federer and Nadal's forehands without considering the degree to which their unmatched footwork contributes is a task bound for failure.
True that. Especially in Federer's case, he has arguably the best footwork (and tennis IQ) in tennis history, which makes his FH look better than it is as a standalone shot - it is great of course, but it helps that he is always in the right position and can smoothly run around the BH to hit more FHs.

Nadal to a lesser extent too, except on clay where his footwork is the best ever beyond any doubt.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:22 PM   #64
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

FH is a FH. Every shot depends a lot on the player's footwork.

But if we take the footwork out and we consider Pony has been in most top 3s, then he has the best stand alone FH ever. Coz his footwork is mediocre compared to the most the top 10 guys.

Anyways, agreed on the fact that Fed, Rafa and Pony are the top 3 closely followed by Tsonga...and Nole + Tbird eventually.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:05 PM   #65
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

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Originally Posted by Freak3yman84 View Post
1. Nadal
2. Federer
3. Del Potro
4. Tsonga
5. Berdych
6. Djokovic
7. Ferrer
8. Tipsarevic
9. Murray
10. Monaco
Same as me. I just rate Nole higher than Berdych.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:15 PM   #66
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

Ferrer's forehand is clearly better than Berdych's without doubt. Ferrer's forehand is more consistent than Tsonga, and he controls points with it better than Djokovic.

Also people only put Monaco last because they don't consider him a top 10 player when his forehand is no worse than Murray's and Tipsarevic's at the very least.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:44 PM   #67
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
True that. Especially in Federer's case, he has arguably the best footwork (and tennis IQ) in tennis history, which makes his FH look better than it is as a standalone shot - it is great of course, but it helps that he is always in the right position and can smoothly run around the BH to hit more FHs.

Nadal to a lesser extent too, except on clay where his footwork is the best ever beyond any doubt.
You've sort of agreed here, but also kind of missed the point I'm afraid. There is no 'as a standalone shot', abstracting the shot from the footwork just isn't possible since the motion of hitting the forehand often includes footwork.

For an example with Federer, take the magnificent point beginning at 3:12 in this video. The idea of discussing the final forehand hit as a 'standalone shot' is ludicrous:



For an example with Nadal, how about the forehand at 10:52 (that's when the points starts) here. The footwork and the shot aren't seperable:



This is why I don't see discussing the quality of shots as 'standalone' as a realistic, plausible or coherent project.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:05 PM   #68
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

1. Federer - not the shot it was - at his peak it was perhaps the greatest shot in the history of the game -, & if you can stretch him out wide on that side you've won the point 90% of the time (except when he's having a blinder basically), but still a devastating weapon on all surfaces, & a shot he can do anything with.
2. Nadal - brutalizes opponents on higher-bouncing surfaces with that topspin, & the equal of Federer's at putting away short balls, but on lower-bouncing or faster surfaces you don't have to stretch him far to elicit a short attackable ball. Nevertheless the top 2 are very close and there is a case for putting Nadal ahead today.
3. Del Potro - perhaps the most reliably punishing flat forehand I've ever seen. His reach allows him to hit devastating winners even when stretched wide.
4. Tsonga - now it's much harder, but if you consider how weak Tsonga's backhand & return are, & the fact that even though he passes for an all-court player these days he spends most of his time on the baseline, you have to give due credit to this shot. When he's on it's one of the biggest weapons in the game.
5. Djokovic - it's not as huge as say Berdych's can be, but it's a hell of a lot more reliable, & he does a lot of different things with it: running opponents ragged with angles & changes of direction, hammering their weaker sides with topspin, blasting winners down the line.
=6. Ferrer - his inside-out forehand in particular is his bread-&-butter shot. It's hardly massive but it is well-placed, extremely reliable, & must be very draining to deal with shot after shot after shot.
=6. Berdych - a big weapon when he's on, but rather error-prone. Not as reliable a put-away as the top 4, & less variety than Djoker.
8. Monaco - solid, reliable, unspectacular shot. Monaco in a nutshell.
9. Murray - okay, it seems to be improving, & in some matches it can be brilliant, & his cross-court passing shot has always been superb, but until I see a few more matches where he can punish opponents down the line & put away short balls consistently, I'm withholding judgment.
10. Tisparevic - streaky. Unreliable.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:06 PM   #69
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

Quote:
Originally Posted by stebs View Post
Attempting to put a value on Federer and Nadal's forehands without considering the degree to which their unmatched footwork contributes is a task bound for failure.
yes you have to incorporate some footwork anyway, that's why I may think Fed's forehand peak is better than Nadal's, I'm not sure about that but he had such a phenomenal combination of footwork+forehand at his peak, but at the moment Nadal's is clearly better than Fed's imo.

I would say :

1. Nadal (not as much variety as Federer but so violent and reliable)

2. Federer (Luthi said that it's the barometer of his game, its quality varies more over time than his backhand's contrary to what many people think because his backhand is his weak side ; besides, this shot has a lot of variety and has evolved a lot across the years, which is surprisingly very seldom talked about comparing to the whole fuss which has been made to justify that Nadal managed to win slams on other surfaces than clay)

3. Del Potro (overrated by some imo : it's a great solid powerful shot but not "consistantly lethal" as some describe it, if it was he would make more winners ; Gonzo's forehand was more effective imo and I would put Gonzo's forehand in competition with Fed's and Nadal's, I would not put Del Po's there)

4. Tsonga (it's not only about power, he can also use spin quite well now, his footwork is the problem : we come back to the difficulty of separating this shot and the footwork although we can try this imo)

5. Djokovic / Ferrer : Ferrer has a better control on this shot but Djokovic has more power, surely all the people who are obsessed by power on this site will say that Ferrer's is much worse than Djoko's and Berdych's Ferrer's angles and direction changes are easily worth Djokovic's )

7. Berdych : it's not as good as his backhand, he can hardly play it with spin which is a very dangerous game : he deals well with it but it's far too little reliable comparing to Ferrer's and Djokovic's

8. Murray : now I think it's better than Monaco's
9. Monaco
10. Tipsarevic
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:19 PM   #70
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

This is not because I'm a Rafa fan but my true opinion
1. nadal

2. Federer


3. Del Potro
4. Berdych
5. Djokovic
6. Tsonga
7. Ferrer
8. Murray
9. Tipsa
10. Juan Mugraco
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:32 PM   #71
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash86 View Post
Djokovic's FH better than Nadal. Same for Tsonga and Berdych. Don't understand people rating Tsonga's FH so highly - it's his serve/FH combo that's good - the FH alone is nothing like the weapon Nadal's is.
Nadal's forehand is underrated by many,

but as for Tsonga's, I think it's also an underrated shot by those who think it's close between his and Berdych's, or, as you say, that it's only the serve/FH combo which is good or that it's only about power.

Tsonga has improved his forehand to be able to incorporate more spin at times, which he can do very well and which Berdych cannot do. He can also put more angles than Berdych.

Tsonga has a bad footwork, worse than Berdych's, which is why many underrate his forehand, but if you try (which is hard, yes) to take out the footwork factor, Tsonga's forehand is better than what some think, it can have both variety and power.

Some also say Tsonga's forehand is worse than Berdych's because of the return but the return is really a very special shot, it's hard to use it to rate forehands, esp. the return on first serve which is the main difference between Berdych's and Tsonga's.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:44 PM   #72
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

If we're talking peak Federer's FH, he's definitely #1. I am not so sure he's #1 right now.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:50 PM   #73
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

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Originally Posted by Looner View Post
If we're talking peak Federer's FH, he's definitely #1. I am not so sure he's #1 right now.
Not even close.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:09 PM   #74
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

Not sure about that. Even in his peak, Federer was often outhit in pure FH exchanges by guys like Gonzalez - AO 2007 final is a great example of this, Federer had to resort to pummel Gonzo's BH like Nadal did his to take that one, he was getting creamed in a lot of FH exchanges.

Federer's FH, while great, was never the main reason for his dominance - rather his unparalleled movement and footwork (best ever imo), as well as tennis IQ - he's always in the right position and always knows what's the best shot to hit. It's those intangibles that made him the player he is. His FH is a brilliant shot but I don't think it was ever the best on tour, let alone the best shot in tennis history. He does hit more FHs than the rest due to his amazing footwork though.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:14 PM   #75
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Default Re: Rank the forehands of the top 10 from best to worst

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Not sure about that. Even in his peak, Federer was often outhit in pure FH exchanges by guys like Gonzalez - AO 2007 final is a great example of this, Federer had to resort to pummel Gonzo's BH like Nadal did his to take that one, he was getting creamed in a lot of FH exchanges.

Federer's FH, while great, was never the main reason for his dominance - rather his unparalleled movement and footwork (best ever imo), as well as tennis IQ - he's always in the right position and always knows what's the best shot to hit. It's those intangibles that made him the player he is. His FH is a brilliant shot but I don't think it was ever the best on tour, let alone the best shot in tennis history. He does hit more FHs than the rest due to his amazing footwork though.
because Gonzo's forehand was indeed lethal and one of the best of the history of the game imo, and it was especially out of this world in that tournament, I can't remember a tournament where a shot (other than a serve) has been so much out of this world, Del Po's 2009 forehand was not at this level.

But usually when Fed and Gonzo played against each other, the forehand-to-forehand rally was quite balanced, Gonzo a little bit more powerful and Fed more mobile and with more variety.

But honestly, when speaking of the best forehands of the history of the game, I've watched tennis in the last 30 years and Fed's is clearly one of the best, Nadal's and Gonzo's as well, I don't know how one can dispute that, Fed's forehand was much more important than his serve at his peak even though his footwork was his greatest asset.
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