Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray? - Page 8 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 10-11-2012, 02:50 PM   #106
country flag Castafiore
Registered User
 
Castafiore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,440
Castafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jverweij View Post
I just don't like it when players keep the ball in play with the sole reason of hoping to draw errors from their opponent.
Fair enough if that's your preference (obviously) but I don't view many of those longer exchanges as simply a matter of keeping the ball in play until the opponent makes a mistake. often to me, it's like setting up a trap and waiting patiently until the opponent falls for it. You can't be too obvious with it, so sometimes, it takes some time to set the trap. I think that good defense requires a great deal of tactics. It often gets an undeserved bad reputation IMO.

Mind you, not every long exchange is interesting to watch but sometimes, it can be fantastic just for the mind games played and the tactics used.

I've always liked solid and patient defensive player but I can appreciate an attacker as well. The sort of player I personally have trouble enjoying are the serving machines: (one ace after another or a serve that's so hard to return that the point will end quickly anyway. Serving like that is a skill but I don't quite enjoy it).
Castafiore is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 10-11-2012, 02:53 PM   #107
country flag Jverweij
Registered User
 
Jverweij's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 4,267
Jverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Fair enough if that's your preference (obviously) but I don't view many of those longer exchanges as simply a matter of keeping the ball in play until the opponent makes a mistake. often to me, it's like setting up a trap and waiting patiently until the opponent falls for it. You can't be too obvious with it, so sometimes, it takes some time to set the trap. I think that good defense requires a great deal of tactics. It often gets an undeserved bad reputation IMO.

I've always liked solid and patient defensive player but I can appreciate an attacker as well. The sort of player I personally have trouble enjoying are the serving machines: (one ace after another or a serve that's so hard to return that the point will end quickly anyway. Serving like that is a skill but I don't quite enjoy it).
I'm with you in your reasoning, but I just don't really like that. Tbh I don't like it when matches drag on for too long either. The AO final really bored me for instance. It all comes down to personal preference
Jverweij is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 02:59 PM   #108
country flag Castafiore
Registered User
 
Castafiore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,440
Castafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
It all comes down to personal preference
Totally. It's just that I often see "attacking" tennis described as the only good way to play the game. It's not. A good defense can be just as exciting and just as good in quality.

There's a reason why Roland Garros has always been my favorite slam. There is a higher chance of longer exchanges happening. The best clay courters were often those who are the best in a cat and mouse game.

Some former professional player, forgot his name, described clay court tennis as a chess game on a big scale.
Castafiore is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 03:09 PM   #109
country flag Jverweij
Registered User
 
Jverweij's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 4,267
Jverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Totally. It's just that I often see "attacking" tennis described as the only good way to play the game. It's not. A good defense can be just as exciting and just as good in quality.

There's a reason why Roland Garros has always been my favorite slam. There is a higher chance of longer exchanges happening. The best clay courters were often those who are the best in a cat and mouse game.

Some former professional player, forgot his name, described clay court tennis as a chess game on a big scale.
I fully agree. I like RG alot. I used to like it alot more when the courts were less homonegized though, because it stould out more.

Don't really agree with the analogy here. What Nadal does on clay for example is not comparible to chess, he is wearing his opponent down, and then beats him into a bloody pulp. Santoro, and to a lesser extent Murray are real tacticians. I can definately enjoy that.
Jverweij is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 03:17 PM   #110
country flag Castafiore
Registered User
 
Castafiore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,440
Castafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jverweij View Post
Don't really agree with the analogy here. What Nadal does on clay for example is not comparible to chess, he is wearing his opponent down, and then beats him into a bloody pulp.
I don't think so.
I mean, I think that it's a simplistic way of viewing it due to being bored by his domination on clay most of the time. He often sets up his points really well. He has a very good head on his shoulders. People who reduce him to "getting the ball back until the other player loses the will to live and makes a mistake" are not giving him enough credit.

Then again, I know it's not a popular viewpoint on MTF. MTF experts state that Nadal is just a physical being who wins his matches through cheating and brute force and unfair topspin.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

To go back to Murray:
Murray has said in the past that clay is his prefered surface. Many are amazed by that quote given the fact that it's not the surface that's given him the best result. However, I wonder if that has to do with him being a good tactician. Clay as a chess game on a big scale is a good playground for good tacticians. Murray could improve his clay court movement, though. Plus, I often have seen him lose patience too quickly.
But Murray has quite a bit of potential for clay court tennis, I think.
Castafiore is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 03:33 PM   #111
country flag Jverweij
Registered User
 
Jverweij's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 4,267
Jverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
I don't think so.
I mean, I think that it's a simplistic way of viewing it due to being bored by his domination on clay most of the time. He often sets up his points really well. He has a very good head on his shoulders. People who reduce him to "getting the ball back until the other player loses the will to live and makes a mistake" are not giving him enough credit.

Then again, I know it's not a popular viewpoint on MTF. MTF experts state that Nadal is just a physical being who wins his matches through cheating and brute force and unfair topspin.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

To go back to Murray:
Murray has said in the past that clay is his prefered surface. Many are amazed by that quote given the fact that it's not the surface that's given him the best result. However, I wonder if that has to do with him being a good tactician. Clay as a chess game on a big scale is a good playground for good tacticians. Murray could improve his clay court movement, though. Plus, I often have seen him lose patience too quickly.
But Murray has quite a bit of potential for clay court tennis, I think.
You make a valid argument. Maybe I am biased with regards to Nadal, even though I don't mean any disrespect when I say he wears his opponents down. To do that time and again, regardless of the opponent is no small feat

Agree with your assessment of Murray, I don't see why he could not be a good claycourter. I will keep saying that I think he is at his best when he is more aggressive, even on clay.
Jverweij is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 03:42 PM   #112
country flag philosophicalarf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 10,454
philosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond reputephilosophicalarf has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Murray has said in the past that clay is his prefered surface. Many are amazed by that quote given the fact that it's not the surface that's given him the best result.
I think it's that he finds it physically the least stressful. On hard he apparently takes painkillers all the time.
philosophicalarf is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 03:46 PM   #113
country flag Jverweij
Registered User
 
Jverweij's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Age: 32
Posts: 4,267
Jverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond reputeJverweij has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophicalarf View Post
I think it's that he finds it physically the least stressful. On hard he apparently takes painkillers all the time.
wow seriously? I had no idea about that
Jverweij is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 04:07 PM   #114
country flag Tag
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Age: 25
Posts: 3,262
Tag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond reputeTag has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

if murray reduced the mph on his serve by 5 or so, and went for placement and spin, and actually came to the net via drop shots, slice and down the line backhands, he would a sensational all court player

why he doesn't do this, is beyond me

he has the natural game for wimbledon, it's all there

he seems to content to grind himself to death on slow hard courts like AO and US
Tag is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 05:59 PM   #115
country flag Lestat
Registered User
 
Lestat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Buenos Aires
Age: 34
Posts: 2,193
Lestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

it is more likely to enjoy drinking my own pee than enjoying Mugray style.
__________________
Supporting the Ballbasher Nation, some of our proud soldiers:
Juan Martin del Potro - Robin Soderling - Ernests Gulbis - Thomas Berdych - Jo-Wilfried Tsonga
Exiled: Janowicz
Pusher Nation's Reign of Terror is coming to an end, their borders are conquered and we won't take any prisoners!
Get Ready King Mandy!

everytime Mandy wins, a little ballbasher kitty dies somewhere... Save kitties; support Ballbasher Nation
Lestat is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 06:39 PM   #116
country flag Sapeod
77 years later...
 
Sapeod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 19
Posts: 35,521
Sapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond reputeSapeod has a reputation beyond repute
Post Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looner View Post
Attack>defence in terms of entertainment factor and marketability as well as crowd support. Therefore, ball bashers>mug pushers.
Entertainment? There is nothing entertaining about watching a player try and hit the ball as hard as possibly over and over again, unless you get some sort of enjoyment out of watching balls getting bashed of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
Mandy tactician?LOL......worst pusher in top 50......disgusting player
Incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
I have a more relevant question: if the OP really believes in what he is writing here about smart tennis being entertaining, why does he hate Simon and call him a pusher when he has a game similar to Murray's?
Simug's tennis is not the same as Andy's. It's inferior. Andy uses tactics to work his opponents around. He uses power, defense, volleys, slice, different shots and good tactical tennis. Simug is the epitome of a pusher. Andy is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
ball bashers are the backbone of tennis
No, they are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliSter View Post
Because he is disgusting pushing ugly looking swearing brat.
As opposed to a certain faking, cheating classless Serbian/Spaniard, right?

Andy isn't a pusher.
His looks don't have anything to do with his tennis.

Get a clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
The better question is why are mindless pushers being branded as 'tacticians' these days ?
Andy isn't a mindless pusher and neither is Ferrer. Get that into your head.

Quote:
There's hardly anything tactical about a gameplan based on retrieving as many balls as possible especially in this slow court era.
Andy is all tactics. Of course he does sometimes just wait for errors but more often than not, he uses tactics, slice, different shots and smart tennis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chase Visa View Post
Ballbashers are more interesting to watch.
They really aren't. The only "ballbasher" that's interesting to watch is Soderling and that's because he can actually do other things apart from hit the ball hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennishero View Post
because murray waits for the UE's... happy?
Wrong.
Quote:
and i still cant believe murray's luck this summer. murray uso champ? LOL
You must be bitter than Andy is now officially better than Del Potro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOATsol View Post
And they are boring to watch.
As opposed to players who hit the ball the same way over and over again as hard as possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
Mandy a tactician more like a weaponless pushing clown.
Wrong, as usual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipolymer View Post
Not even Murray himself believes he won a slam, judging by how he acted in Tokyo.
Remember when Djokovic lost to Kevin Anderson shortly after winning the Australian Open?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroTree123 View Post
Crapeod starting a thread
Problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BroTree123 View Post
No one. I just found it hilarious, and I felt that my opinion would be valued among real tennis fans. Problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
Sapeod isn't even a tennis fan
Wrong again.
Quote:
just a clueless fangirl whose career goal is to be Mandy's personal maid.
Yet again, wrong. I am 100% a tennis fan. I know what's best for tennis and what's bad for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
You know damn well why this is Sapeod, so don't play naive. Murray's game style is so boring sometimes that I find my self looking in the crowd for someone picking his nose just to justify watching the game (it's worse with Nadal BTW).
Incorrect. Andy's tennis is 100 times better than Nadal/Djokovic's. Along with superior talent, he can just do far more than they can and it shows. His variety shits on theirs.
Quote:
Delpo's matches in comparison are a party to the eyes.
Pretty? I've heard a lot of words that descrive his tennis and that's probably the most idiotic. Pretty? There is nothing pretty about a 6'6" clown who can't move on the court bashing the ball the same way every single point.
Quote:
People like watching Delpo much more and people tend to go with what they like.

/thread
Their problem then if they prefer that sort of tennis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTim View Post
"Nadal the greatest forehand in tennis"

It's a complete joke that people are still saying that. Utter nonsense.
__________________
ANDY MURRAY
WIMBLEDON & US OPEN SLAM CHAMPION!!


SLAMS: 2 WINS, 5 finals, 7 semi-finals, 7 quarter-finals...
MASTERS: 9 WINS, 3 finals, 8 semi-finals, 18 quarter-finals...
WTF: 3 semi-finals...
OLYMPICS: 1 gold, 1 silver...
CAREER PRIZE MONEY: $33,359,256 (5th of all time)
MATCH WIN/LOSS: 481-151...
TITLES: 31 and counting...
Sapeod is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 06:48 PM   #117
country flag duong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,346
duong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

I've not read the thread, but I can say one impression I have :

when I saw Murray live, not on TV, I was very impressed, and much more than by ballbashers, even more than by Djokovic (he has a variety of spins much higher than Djokovic)

On TV, you see a lesser part of the geometry of the court and then simple things just strike your mind more, and ballbashers look more impressive.

I think it's part of the reason of the comparative admiration for ballbashers and lack of respect for players who play more rallies and have a higher variety of spins and angles like Murray ... or even like David Ferrer
__________________
useless old guy

Last edited by duong : 10-11-2012 at 07:06 PM.
duong is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 07:15 PM   #118
country flag duong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,346
duong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leng jai View Post
It's pretty simple - most people find attacking tennis far more enjoyable to watch. It's amusing when fans of defensive players try to claim like they are master tacticians when it has nothing to do with whether you are an attacking or defensive player.
the topic is about (primarily defensive) tacticians versus ballbashers, not about defensive players versus attacking players.

Youzhny and Murray are both tacticians, Youzhny with a primarily offensive mind, Murray with a primarily defensive mind.

And Ferrer is much more of a tactician than Del Potro or Tsonga because as he doesn't have the power to make the winner from the first shot, he needs to make the opponent move around the court to get the opportunity for a winner, he also needs more spins and angles.

I think that's the point of the topic : the players who have the power to ballbash often don't use their mind but are very appreciated on this site (even more sometimes on MTF than attacking tacticians), whereas players who don't have it have to do another way ... sometimes they mostly use their legs, in that case it's not tactics (Simon may be witty but as he lacks a variety of spins and he has a defensive mind, he mostly uses his legs), but often they also use a lot of tactics,

but often these MTF fans who supposedly have watched tennis for long just can't see that tactics They only see on one side the guy who hits the ball, on another side the guy who runs and defends. Why so ?

That's the surprising part for me. And imo part of the answer is watching on TV versus watching live.
__________________
useless old guy

Last edited by duong : 10-11-2012 at 07:29 PM.
duong is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 09:09 PM   #119
country flag Lestat
Registered User
 
Lestat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Buenos Aires
Age: 34
Posts: 2,193
Lestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond reputeLestat has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Mugray is a pusher because he is weaponless, stop the crap saying he is a "tactician" that is just an excuse for his lack of offensive weapons. Face it Mugraytards, only you can enjoy his awful style.
__________________
Supporting the Ballbasher Nation, some of our proud soldiers:
Juan Martin del Potro - Robin Soderling - Ernests Gulbis - Thomas Berdych - Jo-Wilfried Tsonga
Exiled: Janowicz
Pusher Nation's Reign of Terror is coming to an end, their borders are conquered and we won't take any prisoners!
Get Ready King Mandy!

everytime Mandy wins, a little ballbasher kitty dies somewhere... Save kitties; support Ballbasher Nation
Lestat is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 09:13 PM   #120
country flag rocketassist
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,682
rocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Why are ballbashers more highly regarded than tacticians like Murray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
Mugray is a pusher because he is weaponless, stop the crap saying he is a "tactician" that is just an excuse for his lack of offensive weapons. Face it Mugraytards, only you can enjoy his awful style.
It's no wonder he shit out of the Buenos Aires DC tie. If every Argie on here's view of him is anything to go by, his life would probably be in danger
rocketassist is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios