How much do you read into the rankings? - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 01-18-2014, 11:19 PM   #1
country flag ClutchOnandWin
Banned!
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Age: 27
Posts: 4,156
ClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond repute
Default How much do you read into the rankings?

Now before I start. I don't want this to be a question about the credibilty or accuracy of the atp ranking system. I really don't. Infact, the ranking system for me is as fair as it can almost be. The fact is not every player performs consistently enough to achieve a ranking that many on here would suggest they should rank at when they see them perform at a high level. (When hot)

I notice a lot of people here read into the rankings of players as measurement of either ability/quality/standard/skill, what have you ... actually no a lot more than only read into it, they use it as some kind of "fixed" route for determining ability and believe everything should go by this pattern.

For me in many cases it is a misconeption what a player's ranking is. Often it goes beyond ability/talent/skill and involves matters such as professionalism, fitness, state of mind and consistency.

As an example:

Ferrer might be on paper "ranked" as high as number 3 in the world but would it be fair to say he arguably wasn't "performing currently" to a quality/standard/level as high as may be one or two of the player's ranked between 10-30 perhaps? I could make the case that Florian Mayer is currently playing to a level much higher than Ferrer, yet we know where Florian Mayer is ranked. What does this say about their rankings? My point is Ferrer only achieves that ranking from consistency in match by match, tournament by tournament. This goes beyond the MTF concept of vulturing, he is just very consistent from match to match.

My question is do you really read much into a player's ranking? If so, explain why you do? Say a player beats a player with a high ranking, are you the type to immediately "assume" he is playing to the standard of what we are led to think a player in and around that ranking plays at? Are you the type that then thinks he can beat a player ranked a few places lower than the player he beat? Or do you acknowledge tennis is to do with matchups, form, fitess etc?

I am of the firm belief that a ranking is simply a mere indicator of a player's level and nothing precise.
ClutchOnandWin is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 01-18-2014, 11:24 PM   #2
country flag Kyle_Johansen
Registered User
 
Kyle_Johansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Age: 22
Posts: 8,984
Kyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond reputeKyle_Johansen has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

It depends on the player for me. A lot of guys earn their rankings based on a few tournaments (like Raonic/Pospisil in Canada) while others like Ferrer and the top guys earn their points consistently throughout the whole year. I think if a player is say #40 in the world but is playing like a top 20, the results will show that and soon enough he will be in the top 20.
__________________
Federer fan, writer, tennis player.
Top 10 all-time list (Open Era)
1) Federer 2) Sampras 3) Nadal 4) Laver 5) Borg
6) Rosewall 7) Agassi 8) Lendl 9) Connors 10) McEnroe
Top 10 favourite all-time list
1) Federer 2) Safin 3) Agassi 4) Sampras 5) Edberg
6) Lendl 7) Haas 8) Hewitt 9) Connors 10) Becker
Kyle_Johansen is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 11:28 PM   #3
country flag MichaelKrep
Registered User
 
MichaelKrep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,606
MichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond reputeMichaelKrep has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Why should we discount consistency and professionalism from the set of required skills in tennis?

Also, of course a one-off upset does not mean the player beaten is not worth his place in the rankings or that the winner is ranked lower than he really should be.
__________________

Grigor Dimitrov Newest Member of Top 10
Jo-Wilfried Tsonga | Marcos Baghdatis

Andy Murray | Alexandr Dolgopolov | Milos Raonic
Pistol Pete
MichaelKrep is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 11:39 PM   #4
country flag ClutchOnandWin
Banned!
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Age: 27
Posts: 4,156
ClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

The main reason I am asking this question is because of the post match Nishikori vs Young thread, a lot of people were whinging in there and asked the question "however did Seppi lose to Young?" Young has the game of a top 50 player but not the mentality to reach there in the ranking's system.

Isn't it classic tool logic to go by this notion....

Classic tool logic.

If player A beats player B and player B is better than player C on paper, then player A must also be able to beat player C.

Is this true or false?


Winners in tennis are determined by "matchups" not by using mathematical logic. Forget your IQ tests.

Nishikori is a harder matchup for Young. Not that Seppi is better than Nishikori anyway. It seems a lot of people read into results, rather than seeing the bigger picture.

Also Seppi beat Hewitt in 5 sets in blistering heat and then played a lefty grinder in heat, who was fresh and motivated.

Often people make a sweeping assumption based on paper and really do think the numbers do all the talking.

It's the... ll bloops are razzies. All razzies are lazzies. Therefore all bloops are lazzies. LOGIC. Tool logic. Correct? I don't understand why people cannot judge a player indepedently on their individual merits, recognising they may be inconsistent, play at a certain level when inspired or own mental deficiencies.
ClutchOnandWin is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 11:41 PM   #5
country flag ClutchOnandWin
Banned!
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Age: 27
Posts: 4,156
ClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelKrep View Post
Why should we discount consistency and professionalism from the set of required skills in tennis?

Also, of course a one-off upset does not mean the player beaten is not worth his place in the rankings or that the winner is ranked lower than he really should be.
Exactly, we shouldn't, but then at the same time we should also acknowledge that some player's are ranked as high as they are because of these qualities/traits and therefore NOT become confused and suprised when a player whom doesn't have the same level of consistency and professionalism beats them now and again.
ClutchOnandWin is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 11:44 PM   #6
country flag Mark Lenders
Registered User
 
Mark Lenders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 12,914
Mark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond reputeMark Lenders has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Not at all, rankings are only interesting to me when it comes to seedings in tournaments. I judge players based on their ability, talented and shotmaking skills, not based on arbitrary numbers.
Mark Lenders is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2014, 11:53 PM   #7
country flag ClutchOnandWin
Banned!
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Age: 27
Posts: 4,156
ClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond reputeClutchOnandWin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Not at all, rankings are only interesting to me when it comes to seedings in tournaments. I judge players based on their ability, talented and shotmaking skills, not based on arbitrary numbers.
This is how it should be.
ClutchOnandWin is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 01:13 AM   #8
country flag Popo21
Registered User
 
Popo21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 899
Popo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond reputePopo21 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

It all depends on what you are looking at the rankings for. If you want to see a measure of a player's overall play in the past two years or so, then they are definitely useful. You can't get high in the rankings without being somewhat consistent and on the other side, you can be a great player every once in a while and be ranked outside the top 50.

But if you are looking at specific head to head matches, rankings have no bearings whatsoever. First of all, a match is only played on 1 of 4 surfaces, so there are many cases where a player ranked outside the top 70 would have a good chance of beating a top 30 player. In the case of Young/Seppi, you give Young a decent chance to win on hard, but if it was on clay you wouldn't give him any. The other thing is age, if you have only been on tour for a year, somebody like Them, you are bound to have a ranking that is much lower than your actual ability. There are lots of young guys ranked around 100 because they are still in that half Challenger half ATP type schedule situation that have more talent/potential than top 50 players, so when they meet a player with a higher ranking they still may be favoured due to skill. I think in the upcoming S. American clay swing we will see a few guys like Pella or Schwartzman beat some players ranked quite a bit higher.
__________________
Canada Pospisil - Dancevic - Peliwo

Crazies Dolgopolov - Fognini - Janowicz - Gulbis

Young Guns Thiem - Vesely - Coppejans
Popo21 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 01:17 AM   #9
country flag leng jai
Registered User
 
leng jai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Oxford (at heart)
Age: 27
Posts: 20,356
leng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond reputeleng jai has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Not at all, rankings are only interesting to me when it comes to seedings in tournaments. I judge players based on their ability, talented and shotmaking skills, not based on arbitrary numbers.
World ranking is actually exactly the opposite of being just an arbitrary number.
__________________
WARNING: This signature may contain extreme traces of bullying and glory hunting

TOMMY HASS
0 slams () and 0 finals
0 consecutive weeks at world no. 1
0 consecutive Laureus World Sports Awards
0 times qualified for YEC
3-13 H2H against Rogi Featherer
0-5 H2H against Rafito Nadal
Career low ranking: 1,241 (26.06.1995)
0 fake mullets flaunted in Roland Garros finals.
1 first name in common with Tommy Robredo
leng jai is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 01:20 AM   #10
country flag nole_no1
Registered User
 
nole_no1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 20
Posts: 13,355
nole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond reputenole_no1 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Not too much. When predicting a result for instance the ranking is maybe the last thing i think about. The ability of a player to play on that surface, the head to head record, the matchup thing, shotmaking skills is what matters first. Rankings are not really that important. Rankings are only important for a player to get an easier draw (on paper) at a slam
nole_no1 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 01:21 AM   #11
country flag emotion
Racquet smash enthusiast
 
emotion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Virginia
Age: 19
Posts: 36,893
emotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond reputeemotion has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Quote:
Originally Posted by leng jai View Post
World ranking is actually exactly the opposite of being just an arbitrary number.
Compared to the unbiased and flawless Lenders Talented Shotmaker Ranking System, the ATP's formula is a joke.
__________________


Robredo, Matosevic, Estrella, Dolgopolov, Hanescu, Kukushkin, Chiudinelli, Gulbis, Rosol, Bozoljac, Gabashvili, Hernych, Starace, Stakhovsky, Brown, Garcia-Lopez, Zeballos, Herbert, Istomin, Kohlschreiber, Tursunov, Robert, Monaco, Djokovic, Gonzalez, Thiem
emotion is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 01:21 AM   #12
country flag Johnny Groove
Future ATP Star
 
Johnny Groove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: South Florida
Age: 24
Posts: 35,473
Johnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond reputeJohnny Groove has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

A good bit. It is a fair number of where you currently are in the world as of this point in time. But at the end of the day, anybody can beat anybody. The difference between an unranked player and a player ranked like 1400, is not much. And then 1400 to 700 is really also not that much. And 700 can easily play and score wins over 200-300, etc.

Hell, we saw Verdasco lose to someone outside top 1000 a few years ago

Anybody can beat anybody.
__________________
Respect the Laws of MTF
Brush up on your tennis history, people- Top 101 Tennis Players of all Time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
What do you like doing on MTF most?
Reading Johnny Groove threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
Johnny blurs the line between grandeur and grandiose
Johnny Groove is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 01:27 AM   #13
country flag BAMJ6
Registered User
 
BAMJ6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,148
BAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond reputeBAMJ6 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

I view tennis rankings the exact way I view the Top 25 rankings in college football and college basketball. That's the only feasible comparison to the ATP Rankings
BAMJ6 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 01:56 AM   #14
country flag Cloren
Registered User
 
Cloren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,110
Cloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond reputeCloren has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Nice to see you back from your ban ClutchOnandWin
__________________
Roger Federer

Del Potro-Dimitrov-Ferrer-Wawrinka-Hewitt
Cloren is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2014, 11:03 AM   #15
country flag HumbleTennisFan
Registered User
 
HumbleTennisFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Age: 21
Posts: 562
HumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond reputeHumbleTennisFan has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: How much do you read into the rankings????

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchOnandWin View Post
Now before I start .....
Dear Clutch,

Please make shorter posts.

Sincerely,
All MensTennisForums
__________________
Supporting: Every single tennis player,with a slight edge for Novak Djokovic


How things really are outside of ATP top players
HumbleTennisFan is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios