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Old 09-20-2012, 03:37 PM   #1
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Default "Points vulturing" and defensive players

In this forum, "points vulturing" is associated with defensive players and especially with Monaco and Ferrer.

I typically read that pure bullshit :

Quote:
In tennis points vultures are often players who's game style is very defensive, so are unable to gain wins over higher ranked opponents and therefore try to play as many weaker players as possible to inflate their ranking.
This is pure bullshit concerning Ferrer, as he's got more wins against top-players than all of the other players outside of top-4 except Rodddick and Del Potro.

As far as Monaco is concerned :

- Monaco's worst optional result at the moment is 40 points, which is very low for players of the top-20.

- in recent years, Monaco actually played quite few events because he was often injured. How can you vulture points when you play few events ?

- Monaco qualified to two Masters 1000 semifinals, this is something which very very few players have done. Ok Monaco won Hamburg, then I guess Haas who was finalist also was a points vulture.

This "Points vulturing" notion and especially the association with defensive tennis has no reality of any kind, this is pure fan's imagination and I'm very angry with the fact that it has become like "common knowledge" on this website.

It might be possible to discuss the notion of "points vulturing" especially for players who take part in Asian or in a lesser extent south-American challengers with weaker fields, a typical player concerned being Lorenzi (or Stebe in 2011). Or worse for players who take part in futures in countries of Africa or Iran which have few futures.

But the association with defensive tennis (which I don't like) can only be made by people who never look at players' ranking breakdowns.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Ferrer = The Vulture
Monaco = The Vulture In Chief

Period.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Ferrer against top-players comparing to Berdych against top-players (Berdych being presumably a player who, in a good day, can beat anyone, which would not be Ferrer's case):

Ferrer-Djoko 5-9 // Berdych-Djoko 1-9
Ferrer-Murray 5-6 // Berdych-Murray 4-3
Ferrer-Nadal 4-15 // Berdych-Nadal 3-11
Ferrer-Federer 0-13 // Berdych-Federer 5-11 : hurray for you but on clay, Ferrer met Fed in Madrid or Hamburg, on Fed's favorite clay, or a long long time ago when Ferrer was not emerging yet

Already, it's far from convincing for Berdych except his hurray-record against Fed, but look at the following carefully : you will see that most of the time, Ferrer has positive H2Hs against other best players while it's the opposite for Berdych :

Ferrer-Del Po 5-2 // Berdych-Del Po 2-4
Ferrer-Berdych 5-3 // Berdych-Ferrer 3-5
Ferrer-Tsonga 1-1 // Berdych-Tsonga 1-1
Ferrer-Söderling 4-10 // Berdych-Söderling 3-6

Ferrer-Roddick 7-4 // Berdych-Roddick 5-6
Ferrer-Davydenko 2-3 // Berdych-Davydenko 2-9
Ferrer-Nalbandian 8-5 // Berdych-Nalbandian 1-4
Ferrer-Ljubicic 6-1 // Berdych-Ljubicic 2-3
Ferrer-Haas 2-0 // Berdych-Haas 2-2
Ferrer-Gonzo 5-5 // Berdych-Gonzo 3-4
Ferrer-Blake 1-2 / Berdych-Blake 3-2
Ferrer-Youzhny 3-4 // Berdych-Youzhny 5-6
Ferrer-Robredo 5-2 // Berdych-Robredo 4-3

Ferrer-Gasquet 7-1 // Berdych-Gasquet 2-4
Ferrer-Monfils 0-3 // Berdych-Monfils 3-0 : hurray, you've got your case, Berdych owns Monfils while Monfils owns Ferrer !
Ferrer-Baghdatis 3-1 // Berdych-Baghdatis 3-2
Ferrer-Wawrinka 5-3 // Berdych-Wawrinka 4-5
Ferrer-Simon 4-1 // Berdych-Simon 2-4
Ferrer-Almagro 11-0 // Berdych-Almagro 7-3

Ferrer-Raonic 4-0 // Berdych-Raonic 0-1
Ferrer-Isner 4-1 // Berdych-Isner 2-2
Ferrer-Cilic 3-1 // Berdych-Cilic 4-1
Ferrer-Dolgopolov 4-1 // Berdych-Dolgopolov 2-0
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

MArk Lenders posted a bullet proof demonstration to prove his thesis. search for it.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Ferrer and Monaco are different animals. Ferrer can beat big players in slams, Monaco can't.

Monaco's top 10 ranking this year is a lot down to lack of depth. You look at all these players getting their best results close to or at 30. It's becoming a recurring theme.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

in the past, you had Golubev or Stakhovsky whose rankings depended on one result : are they defensive players ? no.

This year, Melzer's ranking depends a lot on his win in Memphis. Is he a defensive player ? no.

At the moment here are Tipsarevic's countable optional results :
- Stutgart win : 250 points
- World Team cup win : 250 points
- Moscow win : 250 points
- Kuala win : 250 points
- Gstaad final : 150 points
- Chennai final : 150 points

Is he a defensive player ? no.

In 2010, Youzhny had 4 ATP500 finals in his rankings (Tokyo-Valencia-Rotterdam-Dubai) and a good draw in the US Open. Is he a defensive player ? no.

A few weeks ago, Tsonga had 3 ATP250 wins in his ranking : Vienna-Metz-Doha, is he a defensive player ? no.

The same for Cilic or Fish in the past.

In the rankings, the number of optional results you can count is limited then the number of results you get has little importance except very far in the rankings.

What is important is your highest results. You can get them in different tournament categories, and sometimes you can have good draws or what, but what's the relationshipo with a defensive style ? NO CONNECTION AT ALL.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

You could add (as I did in that locked thread) that this year, in Grand Slams (which do qualify as "big" events, I guess) Ferrer only lost against Djokovic, Nadal and Murray. All of whom are ranked higher and have won one Slam this year.

I admire your work but I don't think anyone is really interested in grounding their opinions in fact over here, sadly
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

vultures and pushers are the cancer of tennis, both must be exterminated to allow for real talents like tomic, harrison and roanic to come through and take their rightful place in the top 10 rankings
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Ferrer can beat big players in slams, Monaco can't.
you may think that if you want, but what's the connection with the notion of ranking points ?

There's no connection at all !!

If by "big players" people mean "top-4" as often in this forum, nobody can do that except once in a year and it has very little impact in the rankings.

If you mean they can beat worse than top-4 players, many players can beat them. Monaco actually has a positive H2H against Ferrer for instance.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
I admire your work but I don't think anyone is really interested in grounding their opinions in fact over here, sadly
I know, but the bombarding of this bullshit-notion has gone too far imo, one thread to attack it will not hurt.

Besides, I think some people do have prejudice but still would accept the truth, I think.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Pardon me, but shouldn't vulturing be referring to players constantly entering tournaments with weak fields ? If that's the case, I don't think positive or negative H2H with higher ranked players have anything to do with vulturing, but rather the number of said matches should dictate that. A player with a high match count against top players, even 0-25, shouldn't be a vulture. That's a sign of choosing big tournaments and failing miserably against high ranked players each time.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by End da Game View Post
vultures and pushers are the cancer of tennis, both must be exterminated to allow for real talents like tomic, harrison and roanic to come through and take their rightful place in the top 10 rankings
harrison is the king of pushers
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Pardon me, but shouldn't vulturing be referring to players constantly entering tournaments with weak fields ? If that's the case, I don't think positive or negative H2H with higher ranked players have anything to do with vulturing, but rather the number of said matches should dictate that. A player with a high match count against top players, even 0-25, shouldn't be a vulture. That's a sign of choosing big tournaments and failing miserably against high ranked players each time.
this.

/thread.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
you may think that if you want, but what's the connection with the notion of ranking points ?

There's no connection at all !!

If by "big players" people mean "top-4" as often in this forum, nobody can do that except once in a year and it has very little impact in the rankings.

If you mean they can beat worse than top-4 players, many players can beat them. Monaco actually has a positive H2H against Ferrer for instance.
Ferrer has a few top 4 and indeed top 10 wins in slams.

Monaco has profitted from a weak field below top 8 or so. A few years ago when you'd expect him to be at his peak age he was nowhere near the top 10.
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: "Points vulturing" and defensive players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Pardon me, but shouldn't vulturing be referring to players constantly entering tournaments with weak fields ? If that's the case, I don't think positive or negative H2H with higher ranked players have anything to do with vulturing, but rather the number of said matches should dictate that. A player with a high match count against top players, even 0-25, shouldn't be a vulture. That's a sign of choosing big tournaments and failing miserably against high ranked players each time.

You're perfectly right but with that, I attack one of the sentences of this dogma :

Quote:
Points vultures exist at all levels of tennis, although are also prominent in other sports such as badminton. In tennis points vulture's are often players who's game style is very defensive, so are unable to gain wins over higher ranked opponents and therefore try to play as many weaker players as possible to inflate their ranking.
This dogma not being rational at all, I agree with you. There's no demonstration of any kind, just a dogma.
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Last edited by duong : 09-20-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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