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Old 09-06-2012, 02:10 AM   #46
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

Golf is a business and the PGA look after its members better than the ATP. The Nationwide Tour which is like the challengers guys don't struggle financially, but of course they want to make it to the main tours.

Tennis doesn't do it, this is where the ITF have to allocate more money for Futures and ATP for Challs. Even before Tiger Woods came along golf was increasing their prizemoney at a rate tennis hasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCtennisfan View Post
This is absolutely true about golf. The PGA, European Tour, Nationwide Tour, etc., all have a better structure than what tennis has going for it right now as do many other sports. The 100th best players in baseball, American football, basketball, football, and golf are going to do much better financially than the 100th best tennis player not to mention that players in team sports do not have to worry about traveling expenses (in fact, players in many sports get paid per diem to handle such costs) whereas the golfer or tennis player has to absorb these himself.

In addition, the PGA and others golf entities have done a much better job marketing their product than the ATP has and have drawn in more sponsors, better T.V. deals, etc., but of course there might be a greater demand for the product, but this was not always the case. The PGA Tour and others have done a great job driving demand with their marketing. Of course, it didn't hurt that Tiger Woods showed up, a unique type of player as far as social implications are concerned, etc . The ATP should have long ago settled its internecine battles and concentrated on marketing the sport to increase revenue for everyone. The ATP and ITF need to first increase money allotted to the Futures (ITF) and Challenger (ATP) events as well as for early round exits at the slams (ITF) and early round exits at 1000, 500, and 250 events (ATP).

The amount of prize money in golf boomed in the late '90s. Part of it was the "Tiger effect," but the general rise in prize money was already on the upswing before his ascendancy. The amount of money the top players in tennis were getting was much more than what the top players on the PGA Tour were getting while players 20th, 30th, 50th, and 100th on either list were making about the same. This is what the money leaders' list looked like in 1990 on the PGA tour (I apologize about the formatting -- I'm using a tablet and not having any success):

Code:
1	  Greg Norman		$1,165,477	
2	  Wayne Levi		$1,024,647	
3	  Payne Stewart	   	$976,281	
4	  Paul Azinger	   	$944,731	
5	  Jodie Mudd	  	$911,746	
6	  Hale Irwin	 	$838,249	
7	  Mark Calcavecchi 	$834,281	
8	  Tim Simpson	 	$809,772	
9	  Fred Couples	    	$757,999	
10	  Mark O'Meara	  	$707,175	
20	  Davis Love III	$537,172	
30	  John Huston	  	$435,690	
50	  Kenny Perry	 	$279,881	
75	  Hal Sutton	 	$207,084	
100	  Bill Glasson	      	$156,791
Here are the numbers for the ATP Tour in 1990 (skewed by "The Grand Slam Cup" and its outlier prize money):

Code:
1	  Pete Sampras	 	$2,875,406	
2	  Stefan Edberg	 	$2,069,689
3	  Andre Agassi	 	$1,739,965	
4	  Brad Gilbert  	$1,551,768
5	  Boris Becker       	$1,513,769	
6	  Ivan Lendl    	$1,416,520	
7	  Andres Gomez	    	$921,216
8	  Goran Ivanisevic   	$902,794
9	  Michael Chang       	$863,015
10	  Tomas Muster        	$696,785	
20	  Andrei Cherkasov    	$379,706	
30	  Magnus Gustaffson  	$218,323	
50	  Todd Woodbridge    	$175,406	
75	  Mark Kratzmann      	$153,035
100	  Lars Jonsson        	$113,441
This is what the money list looks like in 1998 for the PGA Tour:
Code:
1	  David Duval		$2,591,031	
2	  Vijay Singh	   	$2,238,998	
3	  Jim Furyk	   	$2,054,334	
4	  Tiger Woods	    	$1,841,117	
5	  Hal Sutton	   	$1,838,740	
10	  John Huston	  	$1,544,110	
20	  Lee Janzen		$1,155,314	
30	  Andrew Magee		$964,302	
50	  Paul Azinger	 	$568,233	
75	  Clark Dennis		$401,440	
100	  Barry Cheesman	$310,535
This is what the money list looks like in 1998 for the ATP Tour; you can see that the lower ranked golfers are getting close to nearly "doubling up" their tennis counterparts:
Code:
1	Pete Sampras          	$3,926,347	
2	Marcelo Rios     	$3,396,854
3	Patrick Rafter   	$2,862,854	
4	Alex Corretja     	$2,702,569
5	Yevgey Kafelnikov    	$2,543,077	
6	Carlos Moya    		$2,537,553	
10    	Goran Ivanisevic       	$1,541,177
20	Cedric Pioline 		$783,688	
50	Bohdan Ulirach		$436,216	
75	Jerome Goldmard      	$305,834
100	Juan-Antonio Marin  	$216,867
And then there's last year, 2011. Golf has benefited so greatly from the "Tiger effect" and other marketing campaigns that nearly ever PGA Tour event offers up a $900,000 + first place prize and generous money for simply making the cut. 89th place on the list was enough to earn $1,000,000, while 216th on the list was enough to earn $100,000. This doesn't even include the Champions' Tour where the money leader made $2,000,000 and the 10th place money leader made $1,000,000 +. On the Web.com Tour (nee Nationwide Tour), the money leader made $450,000 + while the 25th place money leader still made $200,000 +. Then you have the Euro Tour where the money leader made $6,500,000 + and the 100th place money leader still made $390,000.

Code:
1	Luke Donald	$6,683,214	
2	Webb Simpson	$6,347,353	
3	Nick Watney	$5,290,673	
4	K.J. Choi	$4,434,691	
5	Dustin Johnson	$4,309,961	
6	Matt Kuchar	$4,233,920	
7	Bill Haas	$4,088,637	
8	Steve Stricker	$3,992,785	
9	Jason Day	$3,962,647	
10	David Toms	$3,858,090	
11	Adam Scott	$3,764,797	
12	Phil Mickelson	$3,763,488	
20	Aaron Baddeley	$3,094,693	
30	Kevin Na	$2,336,965	
50	Ben Crane	$1,679,595	
75	Scott Piercy	$1,250,957	
100	Marc Leishman	$916,330
Now the ATP last year; the top 25 earned $1,000,000+ compared to the top 89 playing on the PGA Tour:

Code:
1	Novak Djokovic		$12,619,803	
2	Rafael Nadal 		$7,668,214	
3	Roger Federer		$6,369,576
4	Andy Murray		$5,180,091
5	J.W. Tsonga		$3,173,969
6	David Ferrer		$3,113,904
7	Tomas Berdych		$2,576,813
8	Mardy Fish 		$1,882,091
9	Janko Tipsarevic	$1,692,912	
10	Nico Almagro  		$1,571,007	
20	Andy Roddick   		$1,061,404
30	Juan Monaco		$872,640	
50	Andreas Seppi		$611,040	
75	Donald Young		$425,315	
100	Simone Bolleli	   	$299,021
1998 PGA Tour Top 100 earned: $76,494,000
1998 ATP Tour Top 100 earned: $62,323,000

Not that big of a difference.

2011 PGA Tour Top 100 earned: $209,398,000.
2011 ATP Tour Top 100 earned: $103,140,000.

The PGA Tour boomed as the Top 100's aggregate earnings increased by 174% (not adjusted for inflation) while the ATP Tour's Top 100's aggregate earnings increased by only 65%.
NYTC explains it pretty clearly as to how a strong association looks after its members and highlighting the poor marketing from the ATP and concentration for a few to the detriment of most.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:11 AM   #47
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

The ATP could look at it that a stronger challenger tour creates a better, deeper group of players and should allocate more money to that level as a long-term investment. That said, I find it hard to believe that this idea hasn't been brought up and considered.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:15 AM   #48
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Jackson View Post
Golf is a business and the PGA look after its members better than the ATP. The Nationwide Tour which is like the challengers guys don't struggle financially, but of course they want to make it to the main tours.

Tennis doesn't do it, this is where the ITF have to allocate more money for Futures and ATP for Challs. Even before Tiger Woods came along golf was increasing their prizemoney at a rate tennis hasn't.



NYTC explains it pretty clearly about the poor marketing from the ATP and concentration for a few to the detriment of most.
It's true that on a per tournament basis there is just more money to around in Golf. Far fewer events, but per event golf just is a more rich in sponsorship. Some of it is marketing, and some of it is it appeals more to well healed.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:29 AM   #49
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

feel bad for them.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:00 AM   #50
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

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This is exactly the problem, don't get why they keep attacking WTA it will not change get over it. I hope that they just encourage ITF to actually give their excess income to ITF events as prize money rather than it going to prize money in slams.
this. guys playing GS really dont need the money, guys playing futures are losing money every week even if they do great results
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:06 AM   #51
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

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Originally Posted by grahampros View Post
Like any professional sport, tennis is a BUSINESS. The challengers/futures tour generates little revenue, so the prize money will be slim. That's pretty true in any sport. If your not good enough to play the main events and hang around, you shouldn't be doing it for the money. It just will never be there.
this can be true but still challengers/futures prize money has NOT increased for many many years while atp/gs increased a lot...
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:09 AM   #52
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

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Like any professional sport, they have a organization that should look out for them, which clearly they aren't doing.
true, atp council should care about these things, they have 1 guy from outside the top 100 who should care at least...
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:13 AM   #53
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

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Some of Millman's arguments simply go along with the territory of living in a huge, geographically isolated yet pretty sparsely populated country I seriously doubt it would be economically viable to drastically increase the overall number of tournaments in Australia to a level comparable with that of most of the other coutries cited in his list. Even so, there is definitely room for improvement in terms of where smaller events are located and increasing player funding/prize money.


Some of these figures do make me wonder why there isn't more top level talent coming from certain countries though Perhaps a case could be made that having dozens of challengers and futures in close proximity contributes to a bunch of mediocre journeymen, content to simply eke out a living in their backyard rather than strive for better things. Of course some of these places may serve as regional 'hubs' by attracting many players from surrounding countries but still...
With Brazil and Turkey, give it time. The huge numbers of pro tournaments in those countries pretty recent development. The depth in Brazil is already increasing.

It should have a positive effect further down the line providing other structures are properly in place.

Italy is a bit of a mystery. They have great depth down through the rankings but relatively few cracking the real upper echelons of the game.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:17 AM   #54
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
With Brazil and Turkey, give it time. The huge numbers of pro tournaments in those countries pretty recent development. The depth in Brazil is already increasing.

It should have a positive effect further down the line providing other structures are properly in place.

Italy is a bit of a mystery. They have great depth down through the rankings but relatively few cracking the real upper echelons of the game.
Italy lost a few Challs this year because of sponsorship and Brazil lost 2 but there are still quite a few Brazilian events. It's a lack of quality coaching in Italy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:18 AM   #55
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

btw, millman defeated weintraub in straight sets and got into the quarterfinals for another week
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:19 AM   #56
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

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Italy lost a few Challs this year because of sponsorship and Brazil lost 2 but there are still quite a few Brazilian events. It's a lack of quality coaching in Italy.
yeah, italy lost a couple of challengers this year but still they have really lots of them. different from spain where we have lots of futures and just a few challengers(5 atm)
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:46 PM   #57
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

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Originally Posted by coolfish1103 View Post
If this goes sticky for a while with decent discussion it might do good for some Australians in tennis.
.... Do you really think MTF really has any power? I doubt that Tennis Australia gives a shit about MTF, and I am sure that TA is aware of the situation that Australian players face, but does not care.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:01 PM   #58
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

It´s a sad situation.
Australia is in an unfortunate location, geographically. What might be smart for Tennis Australia would be to support their own players enough so that they can travel a bit more abroad, play tournaments there. Having more Futures or even Challengers in Australia doesn´t really benefit anyone if it´s just aussies playing against each other. As long as the price money is what it is, it´s financially stupid for foreigners to travel to AUstralia to play.
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:13 PM   #59
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

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Originally Posted by Sombrerero loco View Post
true, atp council should care about these things, they have 1 guy from outside the top 100 who should care at least...
They keep re-electing Federer as the president as i don't think he should be on that role, he is too politically correct to be the president, and he is always everything's fine and always tries to be politically correct. Being quiet about everything will not solve anything. I think Hewitt should lead them, with him being the forefront of increasing first round and second round slam prize money. I really haven't seen a big improvement in ATP with Federer leading and then for years he had Rafa who cares about only himself. They have council members that are 6 top 100 singles and 4 doubles players, which is not good. Then they have Simon and Stakhovsky who also only cares about their pockets.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:03 PM   #60
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Default Re: John Millman talking about Challenger tour & financial issues. What's not happeni

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
Maybe I was being too generous.

I think if you win one match in qualifying futures, which is beyond difficult, you should break even. If you qualify and make the main draw, you should definitely make more than $107.50, which is what it is now, which is beyond a joke.
Yeah, it's a hard line.

I agree with others in that it should be a 'winners' tour. It doesn't make sense from a business perspective to pay players barely more than a 'survival rate' at the bottom.

From a player perspective, there has to be a quick learning curve - if you're good enough, you'll move up into the bigger events within a reasonably short space of time, and maybe earn at least enough to get by. If you're not good enough, you should rightfully be forced into giving up.

I do agree that there should be more prize money on offer in the challengers, and I would offer an increase to match the depth of the draw. The prize money in the 80pt draws is very poor - for a really weak draw (in Asia, Russia etc), there needn't be much of an increase, but for a much stronger draw (featuring predominantly top 175), a decent increase (up to 100%) would be nice to see.


Millman's observations about the lack of Australian events are interesting, and I'd agree that it isn't doing much to encourage new players to break through.

However, that doesn't mean that new players should accept the situation at home.

If it is financially possible (through private sponsorship, family finances, TA backing etc), maybe some players should train in another country? E.g. if they move to the USA, they could access the USTA Pro Circuit.

Another potentially less expensive alternative is that a player decides to travel non-stop for 6-12 weeks on the challenger/Futures circuit. With a base in Australia, the player could target events in Asia - there are many of them, and the draws are often a lot weaker, providing a good opportunity to earn cheap points and move up the rankings...
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