Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 09-02-2012, 12:11 PM   #16
country flag duarte_a
Federer Fan & Dull Hater
 
duarte_a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,827
duarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond reputeduarte_a has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinoj View Post
For once Nadals was a bit interesting. Actually i could never understand why the players hit with so much Topspin. To me it seems like so much effort. Instead just the ball flat. Like Agassi used to do.
Margin of error is bigger.
__________________
duarte_a is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 09-02-2012, 12:13 PM   #17
country flag MaxPower
Registered User
 
MaxPower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 29
Posts: 6,821
MaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond reputeMaxPower has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash86 View Post
Because it was a less error-prone shot if he changed it. Players like Soderling etc. hit a lot flatter all the time - they have some amazing wins vs Nadal, Fed etc. but they also have amazing losses. Nadal changing his FH to being a powerful, effective but much safer shot has got him to 11 slams.

Still, odd seeing him as a 17 year old so aggressive and pumped up. Toni's shown in the crowd towards the end - clearly plotting the changes needed to have more success in the future. Would still love to watch one match where Nadal just said, screw safety, I'm going to try and paint the lines and see what happens... Too ingrained in him now to go for the percentages though.

You know if you study young Soderling he played crazy flat sometimes. Can probably find on youtube some matches when he clocked the net 3-4 times in the same point.

One of the true reasons he became good around 2009 is that with Norman as coach he started to play with more margin for error. It wasn't just some mysterious mental effect that was the whole reason.


The stronger you are and the harder you hit the ball the more perfect the ballhit must be. When Soderling especially on clay started to use topspin to full potential his forehand became just as unreturnable as the flat projectiles he sometimes used on indoor hc.



Nadal is also a strong guy so if he tries playing flat his UE count usually starts to climb very fast because you can't play full power without mastering the small margins. That's one reason Nadal never really mastered indoor play. He's not really used to those small margins. He's used to being able to hit every ball as hard as he can and still being able to keep the errors low.

Nadal would be a way less efficient player if he tried to play flat. Also players that try to play like Nadal but are "weak" and can't generate high rackethead speed don't gain that sick topspin you need. Then your rally shots become attackable. Nadals shots are "heavy" due to the extreme spin and it's tricky to move in and take them early. Players that try to play like Nadal but can't generate the same spin are usually picked apart with ease
MaxPower is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:25 PM   #18
country flag Burrow
Registered User
 
Burrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17,496
Burrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just like heaven View Post
He hits like that in practice, but during the matches his forehand changes completely.



When his normal game isn't working I wish he could try that but I don't think he feels confident playing like that.
Nadal isn't hitting flat forehands there, not even close. Those are standard strokes for him, obviously he's far more relaxed like everyone is in training.

And Sayna, Stepanek still has top spin on his shots. All players do. Flat is a relative term. Even the likes of Connors and McEnroe would have that slight top spin on some of their shots (Not always, and in some instances more than others, obviously), but those guys are just about as close as you can get to hitting the ball completely flat, as they did do most of the time.

Hitting the ball flatter takes more feel for the ball and is much harder to control obviously, in the modern game of consistency and defence, it just doesn't fit in with the very elite, though flat shots are the kind of shots where you'd find the most success if you were having a good day. In other words, players don't want to take the risk and as they have great fitness and defence, they're happy enough to rely on these attributes as there's also a chance to win the point attacking with a higher percentage play, using much more topspin but far less deadly and less of an instantaneous impact.

That's why I loved watching players like Agassi, Kafelnikov and Safin. Agassi really more impressive than the other two because he was far shorter and his ideal strike-zone was well below the height of the net. There's few things more impressive to me than seeing someone time their flat, powerful groundstrokes from the back of the back of the court as well as James Blake did the other night against Granollers for example.

As for Nadal, you often hear of how more aggressive he is these days and how he's not standing so far back behind the baseline. Well, I think that people have kind of forgot how he used to play and really fire off the forehand wing. Yes, he certainly does stand closer to the baseline today in most matches and during recent times, though fewer than most imagine, has he really improved his backhand significantly since 2005. Yes, even during his worst times, he can hit a powerful, flat backhand cross court winner whilst on the run out wide on the deuce court, but he also did that with probably even more regularity during his prime simply because he got himself so far back that the opportunity arose frequently. I think small moments like this in big matches cloud peoples memory.

I do believe Nadal's best years with the forehand were from 2005-2008. It's pretty impossible to say when it was at its finest. His backhand and court positioning was better in 2008, and the serve marginally, but that's all, there wasn't massive improvements, just better tactics and decision making on the whole and lots of them at that, as well as experience. If Nadal could find a blend between how he struck his forehand in his earlier years to how he has learned to move closer to the baseline, it would be the deadliest shot in the game at the moment, with Federer's forehand not what it once was. The reason why it wasn't as effective as it should have been 7 years ago was because of his Gasquet-like court positioning.

Nadal often talks of wanting to find new ways to improve and he has done so over the years with various small changes that have made the difference in the most crucial of matches but I can't see him flattening out the ball and being more aggressive with the ball with less spin. I'd call this a drastic physical change, unlike the other changes he's made over the years and I can't see it happening. He's winning too many matches with his current style of play.
Burrow is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:31 PM   #19
country flag Sanya
Registered User
 
Sanya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Age: 22
Posts: 2,342
Sanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond reputeSanya has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrow View Post
Nadal isn't hitting flat forehands there, not even close. Those are standard strokes for him, obviously he's far more relaxed like everyone is in training.

And Sanya, Stepanek still has top spin on his shots. All players do. Flat is a relative term. Even the likes of Connors and McEnroe would have that slight top spin on some of their shots (Not always, and in some instances more than others, obviously), but those guys are just about as close as you can get to hitting the ball completely flat, as they did do most of the time.
I didn`t say anything opposite to this, the same actually.

Though if you want to find the closest example to "flat" shots your choice is obvious - James Blake. This guy uses as little spin as possible in modern tennis.
__________________
Gasquet is next №1
Sanya is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:36 PM   #20
country flag Burrow
Registered User
 
Burrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17,496
Burrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanya View Post
I didn`t say anything opposite to this, the same actually.

Though if you want to find the closest example to "flat" shots your choice is obvious - James Blake. This guy uses as little spin as possible in modern tennis.
Sorry, I misunderstood

It's hard to say, it would be far easier to say if I could judge in person. Blake definitely hits the ball very flat. I think that Stepanek hits the ball much flatter as he attacks, as he really ought to and Blake hits the ball flat almost all of the time, mostly due to his aggressiveness. Rarely have I seen Blake, when out of position, opt for more height over the net to get back to the middle of the court. Even in such situations he'll choose to drive the ball flat.
Burrow is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:39 PM   #21
country flag Ash86
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,508
Ash86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

He does hit flat sometimes, but rarely - note that he played it when up a set, a break and 40-0 - not likely to do that break point down:



I also find it interesting that neither Novak nor Andy hit massive with their FHs either - both are players for whom their BH is their stronger shot, again rare in top players. Novak's FH is obviously still world class and much better than Andy's but it's not a weapon that often, certainly not when compared to Fed, Rafa, Del Po etc.
Ash86 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:43 PM   #22
country flag G4.
Registered User
 
G4.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,856
G4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

That is NOT a flat shot
G4. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:45 PM   #23
country flag Ash86
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,508
Ash86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond reputeAsh86 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by G4. View Post
That is NOT a flat shot
Really? Then what is in your opnion?! That shot has nothing like the topspin that he normally puts on the ball i.e. it is much flatter than his usual forehand. There will always be some topspin but compared to his usual FH this was much much flatter.
Ash86 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:55 PM   #24
country flag Just like heaven
Registered User
 
Just like heaven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,955
Just like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond reputeJust like heaven has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrow View Post
Nadal isn't hitting flat forehands there, not even close. Those are standard strokes for him, obviously he's far more relaxed like everyone is in training.
Flat or not, he doesn't hit like that in real matches. 90% of the times his forehand looks like this

Just like heaven is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 12:59 PM   #25
country flag G4.
Registered User
 
G4.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,856
G4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash86 View Post
There will always be some topspin but compared to his usual FH this was much much flatter.

i agree with that but there is nothing changed in his technique, for him to hit "flatter" is a matter of confidence.
For the rest see what burrow said.
(The only ones that hit really flat are Stepanek who doesn't have this modern western grip and mb Blake. I was wrong on Mayer, i saw him play long time ago, i just saw a vid of him and he definitely puts a lot of spin on his fh)
G4. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 01:00 PM   #26
country flag paseo
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,215
paseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond reputepaseo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Nadal has the biggest margin for error on tour in his loopy FHs. It may not be pretty, but it works like a charm. Why the hell would he change it?
paseo is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 01:04 PM   #27
country flag Forehander
Registered User
 
Forehander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,871
Forehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond reputeForehander has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Well he's winning heaps of grandslams with those topspins so he must be doing something right
__________________
Sebastien Grosjean had the best forehand in tennis history but, unfortunately, he also possessed one of the worst backhands in the history of tennis
Forehander is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 01:06 PM   #28
country flag G4.
Registered User
 
G4.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,856
G4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond reputeG4. has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by paseo View Post
Nadal has the biggest margin for error on tour in his loopy FHs. It may not be pretty, but it works like a charm. Why the hell would he change it?
Yeah, it is this top spin fh that allows him to beat Fed easily. The balls he hits are incredibly heavy and push you back very far, making it difficult to retrieve them and attack them with a one handed bh.
G4. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 01:09 PM   #29
country flag Burrow
Registered User
 
Burrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17,496
Burrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just like heaven View Post
Flat or not, he doesn't hit like that in real matches. 90% of the times his forehand looks like this

If you're merely stating that during the follow through he's not coming over his head but across his chest and body, then fair enough.

You are right though, I've seen a few clips of him actually rallying in training and he's not coming over his head, he is flattening out the ball consistently. He obviously doesn't have much belief in the stroke.

Hard to compare competitive scenarios to training but it does appear that he flattens the ball out far more.
Burrow is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2012, 01:11 PM   #30
country flag Burrow
Registered User
 
Burrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 17,496
Burrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond reputeBurrow has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Flat v. Topspin Forehand - Nadal as a case study

Quote:
Originally Posted by paseo View Post
Nadal has the biggest margin for error on tour in his loopy FHs. It may not be pretty, but it works like a charm. Why the hell would he change it?
Nobody's telling him to change it, but there's a time and a place where the ability to flatten out the ball would be a massive asset to have, when right now, it appears that his most aggressive option is still a very top spin based shot.
Burrow is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios