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Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM   #1
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Default Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Open Era All Time Top 12

Average GS M1000 WTF ATP 500 OG OSB Total
Roger Federer 9.83 17 22 6 13 0 1 59
Rafael Nadal 9.50 14 27 0 15 1 0 57
Pete Sampras 7.00 14 11 5 12 0 0 42
Ivan Lendl 6.83 8 22 5 6 0 0 41
Novak Djokovic 6.67 7 19 3 10 0 1 40
Andre Aggasi 5.50 8 17 1 6 1 0 33
Boris Becker 5.17 6 13 3 9 0 0 31
Bjorn Borg 4.67 11 15 2 0 0 0 28
John McCenroe 4.67 7 19 2 0 0 0 28
Jimmy Connors 4.17 8 17 0 0 0 0 25
Stefan Edberg 3.83 6 8 1 8 0 0 23
Mats Wilander 2.50 7 8 0 0 0 0 15

OG = Olympic Gold
OSB = Olympic Silver/Bronze

Just done a simple calculation based on the open era, so I calculated the players with the most titles based on the most important tournaments (GS, M1000, WTF, 500 Series, Olympics. After calculating the total in the top 5 tournaments, the average was then calculated..as you can see Roger & Rafa are at the top and Novak seems to be in the top 5. My methodology was simple, no advanced statistics were calculated along with any weighting of any kind. If someone has a better way to calculate the top 12 in the open era please feel free to add your own.
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19 Masters 1000 -(8/9 Titles won, an Open era record)
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10 ATP 500 Titles
1 Bronze Medal, 1 Davis Cup
110 Weeks + as Number 1 Player
H2H Record against Fedal = 36 - 41
H2H IN GS Finals = 4 - 5
All achieved in the Fedal era where two players have won a combined 31 Grand Slams and 50 Masters 1000 Titles and counting
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Old Yesterday, 03:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Murray is above Wilander according to your calculations 2.67
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Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Therefore, should Murray be included in the list if his average is 2.67?..What should the cutoff point be for the average number of titles the top 12 have accumulated throughout their careers?
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19 Masters 1000 -(8/9 Titles won, an Open era record)
3 World Tour Finals
10 ATP 500 Titles
1 Bronze Medal, 1 Davis Cup
110 Weeks + as Number 1 Player
H2H Record against Fedal = 36 - 41
H2H IN GS Finals = 4 - 5
All achieved in the Fedal era where two players have won a combined 31 Grand Slams and 50 Masters 1000 Titles and counting
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Old Yesterday, 03:23 PM   #4
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Hunter View Post
Murray is above Wilander according to your calculations 2.67



the list has failed, very hard
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Old Yesterday, 03:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter White View Post
Therefore, should Murray be included in the list if his average is 2.67?..What should the cutoff point be for the average number of titles the top 12 have accumulated throughout their careers?
I don't know it's your list, you included Wilander and made it a top 12.

* on re-calculating my figure is wrong anyway, Murray is 2.5 2+9+3+1=15/6 = 2.50

I personally would just stick to top 10
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Old Yesterday, 03:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

I like the statistic, thanks for the work :-)

I tried to give the tournaments a value and ended up giving them exactly as much ATP Points as they give in reality (2000 GS,1500 WTF,1000 M,750 OG & 500) - this is the resulting list:

Code:
Roger Federer	71500
Rafael Nadal	63250
Pete Sampras	52500
Ivan Lendl	48500
Novak Djokovic	42500
Andre Aggasi	38250
Boris Becker	34000
Bjorn Borg	40000
John McCenroe	36000
Jimmy Connors	33000
Stefan Edberg	25500
Mats Wilander	22000
Actually its unfair that we count just the tournament victories (Bennetau wouldn't even be on this list .. actually not even Cilic would have been on this list a a few months ago, as he never won anything above 250).

But yeah, this made me think that actually counting total ATP Points earned is actually a great way to measure "greatness" - for the all important GOAT debate. Somebody should do that at some point
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Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Hunter View Post
Murray is above Wilander according to your calculations 2.67
Which seems strange in that Matts leads in slams, 7-2. Olympics did not really become a strong event till about 2000, that and the fact that it is held only once every 4 years should not be included in ranking a players greatness. The same is probably true of Davis Cup too, in that one player usually can't win a round alone though Sampras practically did so one year, on slow caly. YE and weeks at #1 and YE Championships are more important than Olympic Medals or DC. I also think that the 1000 points tournaments are overrated, though important. There is no way that Nadal should be that much ahead of Sampras, considering Pete's overall achievements are superior to Rafa's, off clay.
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Old Yesterday, 03:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Hunter View Post
Murray is above Wilander according to your calculations 2.67
that is hilarious hahahaha

obviously in something like tennis where you are trying to compare players in totally different eras, some of whom were playing before some of these current guys were even alive, it's really difficult to fairly compare stats. even title conversions become a problem- no matter how hard you try there is no way to equally distribute the level and tier of titles from the early Open Era to today, because things were so different

all the same I enjoy the original post for its attempt. its fun to compile numbers, however yeah this isn't exactly the best way to do a fair calculation of 'best of all time'
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Old Yesterday, 03:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Which seems strange in that Matts leads in slams, 7-2. Olympics did not really become a strong event till about 2000, that and the fact that it is held only once every 4 years should not be included in ranking a players greatness. The same is probably true of Davis Cup too, in that one player usually can't win a round alone though Sampras practically did so one year, on slow caly. YE and weeks at #1 and YE Championships are more important than Olympic Medals or DC. I also think that the 1000 points tournaments are overrated, though important. There is no way that Nadal should be that much ahead of Sampras, considering Pete's overall achievements are superior to Rafa's, off clay.
yeah it feels bizarre any calculation of Nadal being substantially ahead of Pete, when Pete has a ton of World Tour Finals title wins and wayyy more weeks at #1 among other things
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Old Yesterday, 03:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

So how can we use a metric to define the top ten in the open era?
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7 Grand Slams - 4 AO, 0 FO, 2 Wimbledon, 1 US Open
19 Masters 1000 -(8/9 Titles won, an Open era record)
3 World Tour Finals
10 ATP 500 Titles
1 Bronze Medal, 1 Davis Cup
110 Weeks + as Number 1 Player
H2H Record against Fedal = 36 - 41
H2H IN GS Finals = 4 - 5
All achieved in the Fedal era where two players have won a combined 31 Grand Slams and 50 Masters 1000 Titles and counting
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Old Yesterday, 03:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaindewslave View Post
yeah it feels bizarre any calculation of Nadal being substantially ahead of Pete, when Pete has a ton of World Tour Finals title wins and wayyy more weeks at #1 among other things
No.

Pete is lucky to be top 20 on any list. I am sorry but comparing a true great like Nadal and a fluking serving mug like Sampras is like comparing Echo Falls to Mouton Rothschild. Frankly this post essential constitutes Nadal bashing in my eyes, I thought a fan like you would know better

Nadal is an excellent player, don't let the haters grind you down
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As for Mugray, what can be said? A disgusting human being, and awful player, and a choking pushing mug. He looks like a kemo patient, bald spots, hairless legs, pasty blotchy skin, busted teeth, and an ugly, snarling face. Typical antics all came out in this match: faking injuries, grimacing and cursing, trying to peg Fed, trying to start drama, undeserved final based on an exhausted old man and a joke draw.

I'm no Fakervic fan but he needs to save tennis, sadly tree trunk legs will be fresh. Interesting he's never questioned...
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Old Yesterday, 03:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrust View Post
Which seems strange in that Matts leads in slams, 7-2. Olympics did not really become a strong event till about 2000, that and the fact that it is held only once every 4 years should not be included in ranking a players greatness. The same is probably true of Davis Cup too, in that one player usually can't win a round alone though Sampras practically did so one year, on slow caly. YE and weeks at #1 and YE Championships are more important than Olympic Medals or DC. I also think that the 1000 points tournaments are overrated, though important. There is no way that Nadal should be that much ahead of Sampras, considering Pete's overall achievements are superior to Rafa's, off clay.
Let's divide the year before and after the clay season (RG) and count slam and masters finals for Rafa and Pete before Wimbledon:

Sampras.. 3 Slam finals + 8 Masters finals = 11 finals (10 on hard courts AO, IW, Miami)
Nadal.... 12 Slam finals + 33 Masters finals = 45 finals (11 on hard courts & counting)
Federer 10 + 23 =33 & counting

So, it's Nadal 4x and Federer 3x (and then manages to make the same number of Wim and USO finals as Pete 15 and 5 more Masters finals).

Compared to Nadal, Sampras was virtually on vacation till Wimbledon, where he's made just two more finals than Nadal (7:5) i.e. after Wimbledon it's Sampras 18 : Nadal 50 finals and counting.

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Old Yesterday, 04:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

The problem with the list is it's valuing a slam win the same as a 500 win which just isn't a fair reflection. The list would be better with a points value for each competition, seeing as it's the 5 most prestigious tournaments you're using (slams/wtf/1000/OG+OSB/500) just go for the following:

Slams = 5
WTF = 4
1000 = 3
OG = 2 OSB = 1
500 = 1

Even using this formula it's not a fair reflection, there are too many variables including court speeds/types field depth and Era's etc to make it an accurate representation.

The way you're calculating now would make Wilander equal with Murray and that is just silly, Wilander has won more slams which are way more important.
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Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Murray is easily top 12 of all time.
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Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: Open Era All Time Top 12 - My calculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTim View Post
No.

Pete is lucky to be top 20 on any list. I am sorry but comparing a true great like Nadal and a fluking serving mug like Sampras is like comparing Echo Falls to Mouton Rothschild. Frankly this post essential constitutes Nadal bashing in my eyes, I thought a fan like you would know better

Nadal is an excellent player, don't let the haters grind you down
One of the dumbest posts ever! YE at #1: Pete-6, Rafa-3. Weeks at #1- Pete-286, Rafa, about 150. YE Championships: Pete-5, Rafa-0. Pete was superior to Rafa on grass, hard courts and carpet. Rafa is only superior on clay. Rafa would never have reached a Wimbledon final in the 90's, nor would he have won on USO then either. Like it or not the serve is part of the game, the one shot a player totally controls. One does not have a great record that Pete does with only a great serve.
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