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Old 08-24-2012, 08:06 PM   #76
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
I well remember Davydenko losing to a certified, CAUGHT doper in the 2005 semifinal of RG. If I'm not mistaken said Doper got an immediate ban and his name/points were scratched from the ultimate results list/ATP rankings (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Unfortunately it didn't bring Davydenko any of the deserved accolades, as it should have been HIM playing the RG final against Nadal that year - perhaps never mind, as he probably would have lost anyway, but still it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
yeh I believe Puerta got his points/prize money taken away from RG 2005 onwards, but didn't have his French Open result disqualified/struck off (but every result afterwards was).
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:08 PM   #77
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
Don't be dramatic. Yes, there are obvious underlying comments from abraxas, but whatever, the actual question itself is actually something interesting and hasn't really been brought up.

Finding out someone was a doper is certainly very tough in tennis. Like was said earlier, it fucks everything from the first match onward. It certainly isn't like other sports such as cycling or running where you can just take him out and bump up everyone behind him. One day I hope drug testing reaches new levels of innovation, consistency and accuracy because as is it seems rather easy to get away with so much..

However, I do have to say, while doping is certainly cheating and by no way would I advocate doping, but for a sport like tennis, does it actually help? I mean as my private coach would always say, tennis is 80% mental, so no matter how many years of doping you have, if you can't mentally win an important or if you don't have good technique or whatever, you aren't going to win. So while doping is certainly a serious offense, honestly, if a player couldn't beat a doper, I doubt it had anything to do with the person being a doper, but rather one just being mentally stronger or just a better tennis player. If I remember correctly, back in 2007 when Roddick was asked about Canas' return to the game, Roddick said something like "it wasn't like he didn't know how to play tennis" and I think that is exactly right about dopers. So again just to reiterate my point, while doping certainly is cheating and any player caught doping should be punished heavily, I don't think it really truly has a great bearing on our sport of tennis as it does nothing for your techniques, gameplay, shot selection and mental strength which are all much more important than the physical aspects doping can "help" with, so any player losing to a doper IMO has nothing to do with the doper being a doper (unless something way out of the norm is evident like the guy is hitting 200 MPH serves, lol..)
Of course it helps in tennis as it does in every other sport. 80% mental, really? in todays physical tennis? Everyone at the top level of tennis has good technique, the margin between two players isnt very big, so if one of them has more power and endurance than the other due to doping, of course hes going to have a big advantage.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:17 PM   #78
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by HKz View Post
However, I do have to say, while doping is certainly cheating and by no way would I advocate doping, but for a sport like tennis, does it actually help? I mean as my private coach would always say, tennis is 80% mental, so no matter how many years of doping you have, if you can't mentally win an important or if you don't have good technique or whatever, you aren't going to win. So while doping is certainly a serious offense, honestly, if a player couldn't beat a doper, I doubt it had anything to do with the person being a doper, but rather one just being mentally stronger or just a better tennis player. If I remember correctly, back in 2007 when Roddick was asked about Canas' return to the game, Roddick said something like "it wasn't like he didn't know how to play tennis" and I think that is exactly right about dopers. So again just to reiterate my point, while doping certainly is cheating and any player caught doping should be punished heavily, I don't think it really truly has a great bearing on our sport of tennis as it does nothing for your techniques, gameplay, shot selection and mental strength which are all much more important than the physical aspects doping can "help" with, so any player losing to a doper IMO has nothing to do with the doper being a doper (unless something way out of the norm is evident like the guy is hitting 200 MPH serves, lol..)
I agree only to the extent that a player performing well with doping would have good techniques, gameplay, shot selection and mental strength. But, the physical advantages that PEDs give, can impact the outcome of a match in a huge way. If you are able to put on 8-10 KMPH on your serve and grounds trokes, you become a much better player than you were.

I know this is probably a wrong example in this thread, but it meant just as an example of my point. I am not making any accusations.
Nadal's USO win had a lot to too with his improved serve(especially speed). Sampras won his last slam, after taking an insane amount of pain killers for his shoulder pain caused due to the serve.
All I am trying to prove by this is that a "small" physical benefit is in no way a small factor in determining the outcome of a match.
There is not much differentiating the top players. PED's will produce that difference.

Edit: And this is only considering the difference caused in "strength". Stamina, among other points would also make a difference.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:23 PM   #79
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
And what if in ten years' time a very successful player of today's era who, say, managed to defeat in several ocassions another highly successful player, gets finally exposed as a long time doper, should he be stripped away from his achievements and be reasigned to his long time rival (in the cases in which that rival got beat in the final and it was certain that doping happened at the time)?
I wouldn't give him all of them, abraxas... just W'08 AO'09 and FO'11. Those were the only examples where something was clearly "going on", if you catch my drift.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:34 PM   #80
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by MuzzahLovah View Post
Isn't Davy also a cheater though? Like with match fixing?
Nope. He's been under investigation, but never any 'proof' (whatever that may be) has been found.
In the more civilized parts of the world, it's "innocent until proven guilty".
Davydenko hasn't ever been found 'guilty' of any match fixing at all. Puerta, in contrary, has been found VERY GUILTY of doping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asmazif View Post
yeh I believe Puerta got his points/prize money taken away from RG 2005 onwards, but didn't have his French Open result disqualified/struck off (but every result afterwards was).
Thanks, it's been some time ago, so I didn't remember properly. Thanks for informing/correcting me.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:31 PM   #81
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Marcelo Rios is the 1998 Aussie Open champ in my book.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:35 PM   #82
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
there's an specific discussion about armstrong's case in NT (i've taken part there as well) so please do post your opinions about that there and keep this solely about tennis.

thanks
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:42 PM   #83
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

Of course. Silly question actually. Doping is banned because it gives an unfair advantage over your opponents. In other words the win was not legit or deserved.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:44 PM   #84
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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When you become my boss, I'll follow exactly what you say; otherwise I will comment here and say what I want. Thank you very much!
I was going to report your post for being offtopic but you seem to be a Roger fan and hence a sensible poster. Please don't discredit that notion early on.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:47 PM   #85
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Old 08-24-2012, 09:54 PM   #86
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by Serverer View Post
Of course it helps in tennis as it does in every other sport. 80% mental, really? in todays physical tennis? Everyone at the top level of tennis has good technique, the margin between two players isnt very big, so if one of them has more power and endurance than the other due to doping, of course hes going to have a big advantage.
Who gives a shit if it is very physical now. While the game has certainly forced players to be in great physical shape, you certainly don't need to be a machine like Rafa or Novak to be a top player. I mean look at Fed/Nadal/Djok compared to Murray. Murray certainly doesn't lack in any physical aspects, but what does he lack? Mental strength. Then compare those 4 players to 6-10. What do they lack even more? Mental strength. Really what separates the top 200 in the world has much to do with mental strength. There are PLENTY of players in the top 200 who can hit the ball big, can run for hours on end, have perfect strokes, etc but when they play against better players they fall short especially on the big points. So yes, everyone at the top is very close in tennis level, but you are wrong thinking that what separates them has anything to do with physical limitations, it is all mental what separates players especially at the top.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:57 PM   #87
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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I find it somewhat bizarre,especially in the USA, that doping is considered such a horrible offense. $74 million was used to try to prosecute an accused baseball player for doping. Yet only $16 million was appropriated to investigate 9/11. Goldman Sachs was left off the hook last week by the Justice Department for its many crimes. But people are up in arms and crying crocodile tears that dopers in sports need to be prosecuted and sent to jail.

The fixation on drugs is way over the top. Again you have a place like America, where at least 40% of the population is on multiple prescription drugs. 1 million kids are on Ritalin. Who knows how many millions are on mind altering, SSRI like prozac etc. You have a culture or society riddled with legal drug abuse and use, not to mention the millions addicted to "ďllegal" drugs from marijuana to cocaine, crack, meth, heroine etc. Its truly bizarre and other worldly that people take such great umbrage to the use of drugs to enhance performance.

I see nothing wrong with people using blood transfusions or growth hormones etc.
How is this any different than the use of the many drug cocktails that doctors prescribe?
If an aging athlete can take a substance that prolongs or helps him heal quicker from an injury, then they should be able to do it.
As long as everyone has access to various formulas, then so be it.

Frankly, I am not sure how much beyond a marginal or short term boost it would have anyway.
1) I don't have a huge problem with performance enhancing drugs. In other words, I don't think it's in any way shape or form a moral issue. But I think you either have to let everybody do it or nobody at all. So that's the fixation.

2) I suspect that doping in tennis is quite rampant. You could tell me tomorrow that every single player in the top 20 had done at least sone doping in the pat 3 years, and I wouldn't be shocked. EPO, in particular, would be very helpful for tennis players, and under the current testing guidelines you'd have to be full retard to get busted doing EPO. It's in and out of your system very quickly.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:05 PM   #88
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
I agree only to the extent that a player performing well with doping would have good techniques, gameplay, shot selection and mental strength. But, the physical advantages that PEDs give, can impact the outcome of a match in a huge way. If you are able to put on 8-10 KMPH on your serve and grounds trokes, you become a much better player than you were.

I know this is probably a wrong example in this thread, but it meant just as an example of my point. I am not making any accusations.
Nadal's USO win had a lot to too with his improved serve(especially speed). Sampras won his last slam, after taking an insane amount of pain killers for his shoulder pain caused due to the serve.
All I am trying to prove by this is that a "small" physical benefit is in no way a small factor in determining the outcome of a match.
There is not much differentiating the top players. PED's will produce that difference.

Edit: And this is only considering the difference caused in "strength". Stamina, among other points would also make a difference.
Of course. I never intended to come across looking like I thought taking PEDs do not actually benefit a player, however, I think many people make it seem like doping adds 100 MPH extra to everything you touch which certainly isn't the case. And either way, with how the game is played and the speed of the courts, not like doping would even change much unless Cincinnati was your 5th slam. Blood doping, on the other hand, would probably be the most beneficial type of enhancement for our sport of tennis, especially the way it is played physically.

However even then, I still have to argue that PEDs in general for our sport of tennis do not really do much at the end of the day (again, just to restate my original feelings, I am no way advocating dopers, they should be punished heavily). A player with slightly better mental strength IMO has much more of an advantage over a similar player who is taking PEDs.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:26 PM   #89
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

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Who gives a shit if it is very physical now. While the game has certainly forced players to be in great physical shape, you certainly don't need to be a machine like Rafa or Novak to be a top player. I mean look at Fed/Nadal/Djok compared to Murray. Murray certainly doesn't lack in any physical aspects, but what does he lack? Mental strength. Then compare those 4 players to 6-10. What do they lack even more? Mental strength. Really what separates the top 200 in the world has much to do with mental strength. There are PLENTY of players in the top 200 who can hit the ball big, can run for hours on end, have perfect strokes, etc but when they play against better players they fall short especially on the big points. So yes, everyone at the top is very close in tennis level, but you are wrong thinking that what separates them has anything to do with physical limitations, it is all mental what separates players especially at the top.
I disagree that mental strength is as big as youre making it out to be. How do you decide who has the best mental strength? just sort by the ATP ranking? what about that guy that played with appendicitis? somehow i dont see him making the top 10 any time soon.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:29 PM   #90
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Default Re: If a tournament winner gets exposed as a doper, should he be stripped off his awa

No. Everything would be changed from round 1 then
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