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Old 10-25-2012, 06:22 PM   #331
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
"omerta" is not just a Spanish problem.
yes and I think it was clear that my previous post first talked about this "omerta" topic in general before making a specific point about Spain (or is there a "sweeping" tendency to only remember what's said about Spain when somebody first talks about doping in general ? )

Once again what struck me about the Spanish cyclists' words was the one same argument they all used "if someone has not been tested positive, he's not a doper", same argument Nada has used a few months ago : it sounded as a Bible principle to them, a limit which cannot be passed, and is that a sweeping coincidence they all said that same ?

Saying like Jalabert that Armstrong was a great champion means nothing about the doping topic, and in this thread we speak about doping (was Jalabert doped ? imo yes, but that's another topic).

PS : yes, I like sweeping a lot, and I know I'm so special for that, and you never do it of course
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:36 PM   #332
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Why do you specifically mention the Spaniards when it happened in many countries?
I've seen people from many nationalities coming to Armstrong's defence.
Including French TdF director Leblanc and former French cyclist Laurent Jalabert.
Leblanc and Jalabert were both part of the system, so of course they defended Armstrong. Irrelevant.
What's more, as duong pointed out, I don't really think Jalabert was that much of an Armstrong defender.
Jalabert, while never really acknowledging anything openly, has had a rather cynical attitude when talking about doping. An attitude that always kind of means "I'm not going to say it but we both understand, right"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
I hear a lot of French people (not all, but many) congratulate their own country for daring to throw down their own heroes unlike other countries.
Richard Virenque is often mentioned in this regard.

Pfffft. I still remember that Festina affair quite well. His "soigneur" Willy Voet, a man who has stood by Virenque through thick and thin was held at the Belgian-French border with doping products in his car. What was the reaction from dear old Virenque? He shoved Voet under the bus and claimed to not be aware of what Voet was transporting. Many of his mostly French supporters were all too keen to believe that. Not all, granted, but many.
Virenque was by far the most famous name in that Festina affair so after all these years, it's the name that has stuck, but I remember vividly how the fingerpointing across the border took place.
Willy Voet knew what he was doing and he was guilty so I have no sympathy for the man but the attitude against Voet at the start of the scandal was ridiculous.
Only when the evidence was building up did people start to accept that Virenque was just as guilty.
Your example is flawed, because Virenque was the FIRST one, so of course it took time for people to accept it!
It took ME a lot of time to accept it, at first I was convinced they were innocent and it was all a conspiracy by people who were jealous of Festina's success.
I remember getting mad at a doctor on TV, who was saying: "I'll tell you the truth: as far as I know, about 90% of professional cyclist - at least - are dopers."
I insulted this guy and thought he was lying.

And then the evidence started building up, more and more... And I've come a long way since.
You can say whatever you want about French people being "hypocritical" and "arrogant" and whatnot, the fact is that this work has not been done in most other countries.
Virenque was the first one, but then, there's an endless list of French cyclists who got caught. The last one was Jeannie Longo, and she certainly was a cyclist that France was proud of! Yet she was caught, and there was no public outcry about it, none at all.
Compare this with the reaction to the Contador case in Spain.

Regarding Armstrong, as duong said, it may be true that other people than the French suspected Armtrong, but the French were stigmatised by Armstrong defenders as the evil accusers who were just jealous.
They accused French cycling fans of hating him because he was successful, they even accused French labs of having made up their tests when they showed something dodgy!
So yes, the French are 100% legitimate to claim the Armstrong downfall as a victory.

As for the rest, well, I used to follow doping very closely, I have now more or less given up, at least I don't investigate it as I used to...
But I'm telling you (not you specifically, but everyone who likes to sneer at the French on this topic), the French ARE ahead of most other countries in terms of anti-doping, and the Spanish (and not only them) are way behind. Now you can continue to laugh at everything the French say, but then, you have no right to claim you're disappointed when another Armstrong case breaks out.

(Oh and regarding the British team in track cycling... I had heard nothing about doping allegations, what I had heard was that the British had fallen on purpose so they would get a second chance - which was all the more embarrassing as they had excluded Chinese badminton players for losing a match on purpose the day before... )
Now if you like to think that everything the French say
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:54 PM   #333
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Well I realize that I trolled my own post by mentioning the word "Spain" (and because I'm French, which is an aggravating sweeping factor).

Please dare to accept my apologies for that , I think this post was better :

http://www.menstennisforums.com/show...&postcount=369
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:57 PM   #334
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post

The same could be said about Americans. Some of the reactions to the Armstrong case are absolutely ridiculous. I remember this lady who wrote an article beginning with something like: "I don't know if Armstrong was a doper or not, but what I do know, is that he is a good man and no one will ever make me change my mind."
This is exactly the kind of mentality that is at the heart of the problem. People idolize champions way more than is reasonable. With Armstrong, there is the whole cancer story that makes the phenomenon even worse. For some reason that I cannot comprehend, people seem to think that surviving cancer makes you a good person (I'm sorry, but I don't think cancer is selective, sadly, it kills or spares "good" and "bad" people in a rather random fashion...)
Americans were in denial about the Armstrong case and are still in denial. Denying the doping accusations at the time was already denial, but when, TODAY, people are still saying things like "he may or may not have been a doper"... Well, as we say, "no one is more blind than the one who refuses to see."
I never like Armstrong, regardless of the doping case. I always felt that he's a man of big ego and like to strong arm people around him to do things his way. And when this whole thing came out, I was glad that he was caught. But having said that, I can totally understand why others' dedication to him though. I mean his organization means a lot to a lot of ppl who's suffering from cancers, and their families too. A lot of celebrities have their own charity foundations, but none is as effective as Livestrong. I don't believe that his fight against his own cancer made him anything special, but his impact on ppl with cancer is undeniable. I hate the notion that Armstrong's fighting cancer is heroic, it's kind of imply that those who lost the battles were not worthy cos they didn't fight enough. But I guess when you are dying of cancer, you just need something to make you believe, a story like Armstrong who against all odd survived is really powerful. So even though he's now shamed, I still respect what he had done for the others in his foundation. I believe a lot of ppl found hopes because of him. So, so what if he's not a good man or whatever, he still did good for the society in a way. No doubt there are ppl there blindly idolize some sport heroes, but in Armstrong case, I thought they have a reason, a pretty good one. Does that make him less evil in the doping situation, no. Does that make him an un-redeemable human being what he'd done in doping, no, he's still a flawed human being but he's not all bad. I think his wanting to help the cancer suffering population is a genuine act out of the fact that he's been there and done that. I understand you guys outside US won't understand that because you have no way of experiencing the effect of his foundation, but I can tell you that it's really very beneficial to the society here and even me who's never approved of Armstrong the cyclist have to give him credit for having the foundation. And one can only hope that his downfall won't affect those who's desperately need the belief to survive.

Sorry, these has nothing to do with doping.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:54 PM   #335
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

Didn't the autopsy for Flo Jo show she died of epilepsy and nothing related to PEDs taking?
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:02 AM   #336
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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I think you misunderstood my position, maybe because I did not make it clear enough.
My own belief (which cannot be based on evidence, of course) is that almost EVERYONE, in EVERY sport, is using doping, that it has been like this for decades, and that people need to wake up and realize it.

I'm in no way downplaying the accusations against Moral, I'm pretty convinced this guy was involved in doping, and all the people connected with him as well. When I put him on a list together with Ferrari, Conconi or Fuentes, that's what I'm saying. All these guys were part of a huge system of dopping, and probably almost every other doctor working with high level sportsmen in sports where there's big money (I'm not so sure about the other sports).
I'm also pretty sure that anyone working with such a doctor who claim they're working with him for "other reasons" is lying (BTW that's what Armstrong used to say whenever he was questioned about Ferrari... how anyone could believe that it beyond me)

My problem with what is happening, everytime there is a case, is that they consistently fail to expose the entire system, and only focus on the few people who are directly or indirectly involved.
Sure, the Armstrong scandal has exposed a lot of people, and I believe that in a way, it's a good thing. But as usual, the mechanism is the following: everyone engages in doping, and everyone inside the system knows it (and often actively encourage it). But the rule is: when someone gets caught, everyone else saves their ass by pretending that they knew nothing, or even actively bashing that person (so as to cover up their own responsibility).
When I say people are covering up their asses, I don't mean other riders who were with Armstrong and have admitted to being dopers. I mean every sport official, team official, doctor, or journalist who was part of the system and acted as an active or passive accomplice (and now claims to feel horribly disappointed and betrayed and whatnot).

Look at the ICU with Armstrong. The real progress to be made is on this point. It seems absolutely obvious that Armstrong had a lot of accomplices among sports officials, that's how he could use dope in total impunity (now they're saying that he was actually tested positive maybe up to 6 times, but there was a cover up). But the ICU know they're in danger, and what they did was, they condemned Armstrong and stripped him of his titles, to convince people that they were not his "protectors."
Now, if it goes no further, then the entire Armtrong case will have led to nothing very valuable. They need to push it further and expose everyone, or else, it's no use.

I wish I could find time to read Hamilton's book, but I probably won't have time, and to be honest, I'm pretty sure I know exactly what it says. There have been dozens of books like this one, the first one was Erwann Menthéour's Secret Défonce back in 1999. But it did not really change anything.

I know my opinion can sound shocking, but now, for me, the "default" assumption about anyone involved in high level sports is that they are involved in doping or covering up about doping. I believe people who are really "pure", innocent and genuinely fighting against doping are the real exception, if they exist at all.
And I don't even care anymore about doping itself (can you even say it's "cheating" when everyone's using it?), but I am truly sick of the hypocrisy surrounding it.
That's why the idea of a general amnesty (or even legalization of doping) to make everyone come forward and tell the truth seems interesting to me. People are not going to do it on their own initiative, because they have everything to lose and very little to gain.

Now sure, all this can seem to be idle musings of my mind based on nothing but thin air. But back in the Golden Age of Lance Armstrong, I had guessed everything that was going on and people were dismissing those theories with this same argument ("you have no evidence", "you are condemning people without proof", "you are just jealous of his success", "you believe in conspiracy theories", and so on and so forth). Now with the USADA investigation, it turns out that everything I had suspected was true.
I hold a very similar position to yours. I believe that all major sports either needs to take doping regulation really serious now, allocating a budget similar to what they have for the marketing dept, something like 10% of total profits, hire doctors, scientists and cutting edge pharma testing specialist and most importantly have independent bodies in authority. I don't like to say it, but maybe international Government agencies are the only ones who could pack enough power to do this properly if there is enough public interest for it. How did this whole Armstrong case came about? A US anti doping agency, totally independent from the cycling world brought to light. Is is almost impossible to hope for sports who are in it for profit, to regulate themselves really efficiently.

To the athletes, the point is, it can't be a choice, is inhumane to expect athletes who make a living out of sports, to have to choose from the good of their hearts not to dope while having a wide open door to do it. It is easy to judge from the PC in an internet forum, people here will never be in that situation of either get on with the doping culture in your sport or go do something else and forget about your dreams. Is like having no police and expecting nobody to break the law, that is not how human nature works, self-interest is just too powerful. There needs to be a strong and efficient deterrent.


Actually, the more time I spend reading and understanding the Peds culture, the more I think it should be allowed and regulated to some extent. It is becoming silly in the way in which we can be prescribed and be allowed to have more access to drugs than professional athletes can't, doesn't seem realistic. Look at this way, in your gym there are probably a dozen of guys supplementing themselves in several ways, for example, testosterone, which is the male hormone, and its synthetic form is called Steroids. And nowdays you can find it in several ways, Gels, cream, oral, etc. So it is available in many forms and legally prescribed to a lot of people because of several reasons. Then you have Human Growth Hormone, more and more people specially older than 40, have doctors prescribe them HGH as a good supplement to keep physical muscle and bone aging in check.

You have TRT, which is becoming very popular in the US I read. Test replacement therapy, which a lot of 45+ years old guys who have their testosterone lowered due to aging and can go to their endocrinologist and have their Test. boost to what is considered a healthy moderate level. Testosterone, HGH are all things that can be prescribed to the average person depending on what country you live and have studies that shown that used in an moderate supervise form, can have good physical benefits and the science. Of course, it also show side effects but nothing really major from what I read if used moderately and every drug has side effects. So the science on this keep evolving and getting better. I will probably myself will look for this things when I am older, why not? I have an active lifestyle playing sports on a regular basis, why shouldn't I use what is available to maintain my physical abilities at the best level possible.

So if for the average Joe will be more and more able to find this either by his Doctor or at his local gym and these drugs keep evolving and seeing more benefits if used correctly. It silly it is to expect that Professional athletes who live off their body, to not have access to any them. That is why I am starting to lean towards it needs to be regulated and kept to a certain level realistically,, rather than all let's keep all the Peds totally away from athletes.

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Old 10-26-2012, 03:59 AM   #337
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Didn't the autopsy for Flo Jo show she died of epilepsy and nothing related to PEDs taking?
It supposedly did. For all I know it might even be true. That would further diminish the death toll from doping, which as I mentioned appears lower that one would imagine. I understand many East German former athletes struggle with health issues but they are at least mostly still alive.
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:00 AM   #338
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

post moved from the "doping in tennis" thread in GM:

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
Leblanc and Jalabert were both part of the system, so of course they defended Armstrong. Irrelevant.
It's called "omerta" and it's not irrelevant since it proves that omerta isn't just a Spanish problem but it still exists in France as well so it's rather pointless to me to start accusing the Spanish in a sweeping way while patting the poor stigmatised French on the back when the problem still exists worldwide.

Quote:
You can say whatever you want about French people being "hypocritical" and "arrogant" and whatnot, the fact is that this work has not been done in most other countries.
Again, don't put words into my mouth. I didn't say that about French people so don't pull the victim card on me, please.

The focus is so much on France in the Armstrong case because the Tour de France is the most important cycling event but without googling - so, just from what you already know - and looking not just at cycling, what do you know exactly on what's being done outside France to warrant your "this work has not been done in most other countries" comment? (and if you can, go outside the French media if you want to do some research on this)


Quote:
Originally Posted by zebedee
I don't buy the 'make them legal' argument, plus of course you have the health risks. Don't assume doctors are all sweetness and light either.
Me neither.
Some doctors were exactly a huge part of the problem with the excuse, maybe a valid one in part, that if they don't get involved, the health risks would be even higher. I've heard some doctors give that explanation: "my concern was for their health. If I didn't get involved, I know that they would do it without medical assistance and they'd put themselves in more danger".

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:28 AM   #339
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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I never like Armstrong, regardless of the doping case. I always felt that he's a man of big ego and like to strong arm people around him to do things his way. And when this whole thing came out, I was glad that he was caught. But having said that, I can totally understand why others' dedication to him though. I mean his organization means a lot to a lot of ppl who's suffering from cancers, and their families too. A lot of celebrities have their own charity foundations, but none is as effective as Livestrong. I don't believe that his fight against his own cancer made him anything special, but his impact on ppl with cancer is undeniable. I hate the notion that Armstrong's fighting cancer is heroic, it's kind of imply that those who lost the battles were not worthy cos they didn't fight enough. But I guess when you are dying of cancer, you just need something to make you believe, a story like Armstrong who against all odd survived is really powerful. So even though he's now shamed, I still respect what he had done for the others in his foundation. I believe a lot of ppl found hopes because of him. So, so what if he's not a good man or whatever, he still did good for the society in a way. No doubt there are ppl there blindly idolize some sport heroes, but in Armstrong case, I thought they have a reason, a pretty good one. Does that make him less evil in the doping situation, no. Does that make him an un-redeemable human being what he'd done in doping, no, he's still a flawed human being but he's not all bad. I think his wanting to help the cancer suffering population is a genuine act out of the fact that he's been there and done that. I understand you guys outside US won't understand that because you have no way of experiencing the effect of his foundation, but I can tell you that it's really very beneficial to the society here and even me who's never approved of Armstrong the cyclist have to give him credit for having the foundation. And one can only hope that his downfall won't affect those who's desperately need the belief to survive.

Sorry, these has nothing to do with doping.
Great sensible post about Armstrong, the topic here
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Old 10-26-2012, 12:04 PM   #340
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

It still goes on and on, I'm afraid.

I read that Rolf Aldag will be technical manager in the Omega Pharma Quick-Step team. Aldag was part of Telecom (Riis, Ullrich) + Aldag admitted to having used doping (EPO)

I seriously don't get Lefevere. The Quick-Step team fires Leipheimer for admitting to having used doping and a couple of days later, they hire Aldag. So, one guy gets fired because he admitted to doping and another gets hired despite admitting to doping. What am I missing here?

For Echoes, in case he reads this: another article on Patrick Lefevere:
Patrick Lefevere en het grote vraagteken

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Old 10-26-2012, 02:28 PM   #341
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
That's again a very sweeping statement you're making, not only about the "in Spain" bit but also the "in other countries" bit.

"omerta" is not just a Spanish problem.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2012/10/24/l-...a-858847-8.php
Did he ever say it's just a Spanish problem? It seems very clear to me he said the problem is especially serious in Spain. He said Spain has a more serious doping problem than other countries, and the Spanish culture is more lenient towards doping than most other cultures.

And he is absolutely right.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:33 PM   #342
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Did he ever say it's just a Spanish problem? It seems very clear to me he said the problem is especially serious in Spain. He said Spain has a more serious doping problem than other countries, and the Spanish culture is more lenient towards doping than most other cultures.

And he is absolutely right.
Yep. Not impressed that Indurain, Valverde and Contador jumped to Dopestrong's defence.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:52 PM   #343
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

Titles stay vacated.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-...mstrongs-tours
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:59 PM   #344
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Did he ever say it's just a Spanish problem? It seems very clear to me he said the problem is especially serious in Spain. He said Spain has a more serious doping problem than other countries, and the Spanish culture is more lenient towards doping than most other cultures.

And he is absolutely right.
Did he talk about the Spanish problem in a very sweeping way? Yes.
Did he talk about France in an equally sweeping way but in the opposite direction? Yes.

I think that it's totally blinded to focus on Spain that much when, if you look at doping issues in several sports, it's very obvious that it is not that much more a problem in Spain.

I often hear it, "Spanish athlete? Doper. Everybody knows that Spanish culture is lenient towards doping". Most of them fall totally silent when you start mentioning doping problems in other countries and about other athletes.

Now, before you jump on this: I'm not suggesting that Spain doesn't have a problem and I do think that they still have an attitude change ahead of them but the country is often being targetted too much vs some other countries.
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Old 10-26-2012, 05:20 PM   #345
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
The topic was omerta. And my problem with the Spaniards' reactions was not that they defended Amrstrong but the argument they all used : "there's no evidence, he's never tested positive".

Don't you see the difference with Jalabert (which many ones suspect as a doper in France) who said that "he's a great champion" ?
Armstrong is not everything in cycling, for 100000X time. French people have defended many dopers, with whatever arguments. By the way, the French (on VCN) and the Yanks (on CN) are really boring with their Armstrong. You've got the Padova affair under way now, who cares? Puerto is not over yet, but who cares? As long as you have a 156254863,24556th evidence against Armstrong, nothing else matters. I have to repeat myself but L'Équipe showed back in 2005 that Pharmstrong DID test positive for EPO. For me the page was turned 7 years ago and I find it staggering to see all these debates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
I just said I was not surprised that this quick reaction came from a Belgian person. I've read people enough on Belgian forums (even though French people seem to be hated in many places of the world, and they maybe deserve it -many French people actually think that -, many Belgians have a special allergy about the French, it's more epidermic, let's say), I know what to expect, there's a special cultural climate in Belgium about the French. I used to think we were near people (especially as I come from Northern France) but I realized that our neighbours had this allergy.
No need to be so paranoid, lol. Yeah we still remember the Battle of the Golden Spurs and though I like French history, you'll never make a French out of me. If my country splits up, I'd apply for Flemish citizenship.

But don't believe you have the "monopoly on heart". In the early 90's, we, Belgians, were completely crushed everywhere because we were probably the last to turn to EPO. Edwig Van Hooydonck described that very well. Belgians who wanted to make a career had to escape to Italy. Museeuw was one of them. There was no prospect a Belgian in a Belgian team performing, while your riders were winning every major race, along with the Italians and the Spaniards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore
For Echoes, in case he reads this: another article on Patrick Lefevere:
Patrick Lefevere en het grote vraagteken
Seems interesting.

I've never said Lefevere was not suspicious, quite on the contrary. On the Cycling thread, I suggested he might've had his responsibility in Defauw's suicide. Lefevere gave second chances to guys like Virenque, Dufaux, almost give one to Riccò and give second, third and I don't how many chances to Vandenbroucke.

I only said I haven't heard of his being involved in the Landuyt/Versele affair.

How by the way, he's also a fixer, have you seen that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PIw-gUYPUM
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