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Old 10-25-2012, 06:14 AM   #316
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Originally Posted by Punky View Post
yes i thought Armstrong is an odd case out
doping and sports is just sick, why no one is doing anything/ is it b/c of money that they doing want to lose from their Golden goose?

thid thread is Depressing but I'm learning things I never knew or thought about in the past..

thanks
No, and let me telling you something Tennis is not nearly as strict with the testing as cycling currently is. Cycling is now arguably the most strictly anti-doping regulated sport.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:23 AM   #317
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
No, and let me telling you something Tennis is not nearly as strict with the testing as cycling currently is. Cycling is now arguably the most strictly anti-doping regulated sport.
So there's a chance, a big one that there's top players doping and no one knows about it?? Or knows and say nothing??

Why it's not strict with the testing like cycling??
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:38 AM   #318
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

I still don't quite get why these guys aren't dropping dead if they doped this much.

These guys are in their 40's now.

Is it the case that if you retire and you don't die, if your not doing it any more you will eventually recover from the damage?

I'm not saying they didn't dope..but they must have had long periods where they didn't boost. You would think they would be keeling over en masse.

It'd be like riding drunk all the time, a ticking heart attack time bomb.

I mean wrestlers are dieing from roiding and they dont use dangerous blood transfusions as often id guess.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:42 AM   #319
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Originally Posted by 2003 View Post
I still don't quite get why these guys aren't dropping dead if they doped this much.

These guys are in their 40's now.

Is it the case that if you retire and you don't die, if your not doing it any more you will eventually recover from the damage?

I'm not saying they didn't dope..but they must have had long periods where they didn't boost. You would think they would be keeling over en masse.

It'd be like riding drunk all the time, a ticking heart attack time bomb.

I mean wrestlers are dieing from roiding and they dont use dangerous blood transfusions as often id guess.
Increased mortality rates does not mean everyone will die. Some do, like Florence Griffith-Joyner and a couple of East Germans which name I cannot recall, but most survive. It will be very interesting so see the longevity of the bulk of former East German athletes. Nothing happening now could be worse than back then. Doctors are bound to have gotten better at decreasing health risks since the 70s and 80s.

Wrestlers - I presume you are talking about the Hulk Hogan kind and not the Alexander Karelin kind - have no doping tests whatsoever, they are actors, not sportsmen. While cyclists have to make sure they are below certain levels at the time of competitions, wrestlers can have concentrations 1000 times above and not get punished for it. So I am not surprised this profession is the most dangerous.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #320
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Originally Posted by Punky View Post
So there's a chance, a big one that there's top players doping and no one knows about it?? Or knows and say nothing??

Why it's not strict with the testing like cycling??
Because as you just said if they were really scrict they would catch more top players and that is not good for Business, they would also need to invest more money in testing. Cycling is doing that and look at the image of the sport now, will be hard to manage its image and attract good sponsors.
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:43 PM   #321
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

I don't think that it's fair to suggest that France is that much more advanced in doping hunts.

Germany for example, has no problem at all with taking down their own heroes and hunting them down (Ullrich & co)
Belgium has done similar things (Vandenbroucke, Museeuw, Planckaert, Meirhaeghe,...)
You can come up with quite a few other countries but I can't be bothered to do the research right now.

Furthermore, in the Vuelta, many doping cases were caught, incl. Spanish cyclists. Heras, a big Spanish cycling hero, springs to mind.

Doping is an international problem. It's quite pointless to me to start patting your own country on the back for being advanced and pointing fingers at other countries without even bothering to properly finding out what is exactly being done and how effective it all is.

Noah's accusations were sweeping statements vs one nation (which comes across as xenophobic). It was dumb rather than informative.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:48 PM   #322
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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I don't think that it's fair to suggest that France is that much more advanced in doping hunts.

Germany for example, has no problem at all with taking down their own heroes and hunting them down (Ullrich & co)
Belgium has done similar things (Vandenbroucke, Museeuw, Planckaert, Meirhaeghe,...)
You can come up with quite a few other countries but I can't be bothered to do the research right now.

Furthermore, in the Vuelta, many doping cases were caught, incl. Spanish cyclists. Heras, a big Spanish cycling hero, springs to mind.

Doping is an international problem. It's quite pointless to me to start patting your own country on the back for being advanced and pointing fingers at other countries without even bothering to properly finding out what is exactly being done and how effective it all is.

Noah's accusations were sweeping statements vs one nation (which comes across as xenophobic). It was dumb rather than informative.
That's not the point : the point is that several Spanish cyclists have repeatedly come defending Armstrong in recent days saying that "nothing is proved as he has not failed tests, if you can be condemned without failing a test it's a strange way to change "rules"", which is an argument which would look ridiculous in France and, I guess, in many other countries (I didn't read any argument like that in reactions from other countries, except of course from the people who love Armstrong in the USA, but their reaction is based on love blindness, not on this strange argument).

The same sentence "it's impossible to escape tests if you're a doper" had also been naturally used by Nadal a few months ago.

I don't say that against Nadal, but I say that it's an evidence of the fact of the environment he lives in, that the omerta in Spain and in the Spanish media on that topic is really special. Something we had already heard of before, and not only from Noah (but the fact is that there was an unbelievable fuss made about Noah's words : specialists of doping can talk very seriously, nobody will hear about it but Noah says a few vague words in a small magazine and : that's the ridiculous media world which we live in )

As for other countries comparing to France, I don't know. We had been accused of being so awful on that before and anyway the presence of Tour de France in France would be the main reason of that, not some kind of French "greatness", but just an opportunity, which led "l'Equipe" and "le Monde" to be "specialists" on that topic, if other countries also have specialists without the opportunity congrats to them

PS : not surprised to see a Belgian immediately react about what they inevitably perceive as "French arrogance"
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:57 PM   #323
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

The French are notorious finger pointing hypocrites and always have been when it comes to doping. For them to say 'they were right' about Pharmstrong is just hilarious, given pretty much the whole world suspected him.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:00 PM   #324
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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For them to say 'they were right' about Pharmstrong is just hilarious, given pretty much the whole world suspected him.
it's perfectly true, the whole reasonable world did suspect him, but still the French were the only ones who were attacked for saying that, it was so convenient

And now you can also attack the French on that : there's alsways a good reason to insult these French bastards

anyway, that's not the main topic, even if I know that many people would be glad to troll that topic : if there's a nationality topic mentioned here as far as doping is concerned, it's only Spain and not the fucking accusing hypocrite arrogant French bastards.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:02 PM   #325
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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it's perfectly true, the whole reasonable world did suspect him, but still the French were the only ones who were attacked for that.

And now you can also attack the French on that : there's alsways a good reason to insult these French bastards

anyway, that's not the main topic, even if I know that many people would be glad to troll that topic : if there's a nationality topic here, it's only Spain.
I'm kind of going from the Olympics when some French media started accusing the whole of GBR cycling (track and road) team of being on the juice.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:07 PM   #326
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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I'm kind of going from the Olympics when some French media started accusing the whole of GBR cycling (track and road) team of being on the juice.
not French media : French cyclists or cycling team staff.

I can tell you that on French TV, the British team was defended a lot by the main commentators, we heard a lot of the efficiency of GBR's program ... despite the French cyclists' allegations. Besides, French cyclists were not the only ones accusing, it's just that France has been GBR's main opponent in track cycling in recent years. And yes, the sudden emergence just in the meantime of GBR as dominant in road cycling through Sky team of course surely helped the accusers. Once again Tour de France is in France then people talk a lot about it in France.

Besides, the accusers had no evidence at all, it's not comparable to Armstrong's case.
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:37 PM   #327
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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That's not the point : the point is that several Spanish cyclists have repeatedly come defending Armstrong in recent days saying that "nothing is proved as he has not failed tests,
Why do you specifically mention the Spaniards when it happened in many countries?
I've seen people from many nationalities coming to Armstrong's defence.

Including French TdF director Leblanc and former French cyclist Laurent Jalabert.

So, just pointing once again at the Spanish is proving what exactly?

I hear a lot of French people (not all, but many) congratulate their own country for daring to throw down their own heroes unlike other countries.
Richard Virenque is often mentioned in this regard.

Pfffft. I still remember that Festina affair quite well. His "soigneur" Willy Voet, a man who has stood by Virenque through thick and thin was held at the Belgian-French border with doping products in his car. What was the reaction from dear old Virenque? He shoved Voet under the bus and claimed to not be aware of what Voet was transporting. Many of his mostly French supporters were all too keen to believe that. Not all, granted, but many.
Virenque was by far the most famous name in that Festina affair so after all these years, it's the name that has stuck, but I remember vividly how the fingerpointing across the border took place.
Willy Voet knew what he was doing and he was guilty so I have no sympathy for the man but the attitude against Voet at the start of the scandal was ridiculous.
Only when the evidence was building up did people start to accept that Virenque was just as guilty.


Quote:
PS : not surprised to see a Belgian immediately react about what they inevitably perceive as "French arrogance"
Why are you putting "" between the words French arrogance when I haven't written those words? You're assuming things based on my nationality like you're assuming things in a rather sweeping way about Spaniards based on their nationality?


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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
The French are notorious finger pointing hypocrites and always have been when it comes to doping. For them to say 'they were right' about Pharmstrong is just hilarious, given pretty much the whole world suspected him.
Exactly.

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Old 10-25-2012, 05:49 PM   #328
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Why do you specifically mention the Spaniards when it happened in many countries?
I've seen people from many nationalities coming to Armstrong's defence.

Including French TdF director Leblanc and former French cyclist Laurent Jalabert.
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Originally Posted by duong View Post
But now I understand the role of omerta better, and I must say that what's really struck and surprised me in the last days' reactions were the reactions from Spanish cyclists : reading Indurain, Sanchez, Contador, Valverde, all and only Spanish cyclists, one after another, say the good old "that's unfair, I believe he's innocent because he's never been tested positive" (which is not true either : he was caught but the ICU hid it).

Reading Indurain (a legend of this sport still in France) say that ... I thought "how can he say that ? nobody could say that in France" (even the well-known French likely former doper Jalabert has only said "still he was a very talented cyclist"). Clearly the situation in the media in Spain allows him to say that, which led Nadal to say "naturally" exactly the same totally stupid argument a few months ago "it's impossible to escape from tests if you dope then if you're not tested positive, it means you're not a doper" (an argument which the new WADA director Fahey has fought against a lot).
The topic was omerta. And my problem with the Spaniards' reactions was not that they defended Amrstrong but the argument they all used : "there's no evidence, he's never tested positive".

Don't you see the difference with Jalabert (which many ones suspect as a doper in France) who said that "he's a great champion" ?

It was not a personal argument, Armstrong is not the topic of this thread, it was an argument about omerta and the problem it raises for anti-doping policy. And yes, the media and environment in Spain are different from the media and environment in other countries, that's how things are. And here the problem there is omerta.

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
why are you putting "" between the words French arrogance when I haven't written those words. You're assuming things based on my nationality like you're assuming things in a rather sweeping way about Spaniards based on their nationality?
I just said I was not surprised that this quick reaction came from a Belgian person. I've read people enough on Belgian forums (even though French people seem to be hated in many places of the world, and they maybe deserve it -many French people actually think that -, many Belgians have a special allergy about the French, it's more epidermic, let's say), I know what to expect, there's a special cultural climate in Belgium about the French. I used to think we were near people (especially as I come from Northern France) but I realized that our neighbours had this allergy.

But it was a PS, not the main topic.

PS : it's always better to be prepared to these kind of hating allergic reactions, I also know I'm very much hated on MTF, especially by Nadalfans, but now I'm prepared for all these hating comments I get, I expect them, it's better
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:40 PM   #329
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Contador has won all three Grand Tours albeit not in the same year.
Circumstances drove him to the Giro and the Vuelta. The years he was kept from Bore, or threatened to be. Otherwise he would have raced Bore.

What has Plasticador done on the Classics? His best result is a 9th place at Liège-Bastogne-Liège or at the Tour of Lombardy. That's why he's a joke. Clenbutador cannot keep up over a 250km distance.


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Top riders will occasionally skip one of them, sometimes the Giro gets jibbed due to it being quite close to the TDF (end of May Giro, early July TDF)
That is NOT close. Giro used to be raced in June (before 1995) and many more riders doubled.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:43 PM   #330
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Default Re: Doping in Tennis Thread (No accusations without proof)

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And yes, the media and environment in Spain are different from the media and environment in other countries, that's how things are. And here the problem there is omerta.
That's again a very sweeping statement you're making, not only about the "in Spain" bit but also the "in other countries" bit.

"omerta" is not just a Spanish problem.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2012/10/24/l-...a-858847-8.php
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