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Old 10-22-2012, 02:31 PM   #241
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Eddy was caught doping three times, wasn't he? During Giro d'Italia 1969, after Giro de Lombardia 1973 and Fleche Wallonne 1977. At that time there were no significant ban, just disqualification from the event in question.


The first two are null...


And again, doping in the 70's does not matter.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:34 PM   #242
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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And why isn't Hincapie stripped off his wins in the Plouay GP and Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne, for instance. This is all at Bore de France's glory !
He might still be. Tyler Hamilton lost his Olympic gold from 2004 not so long ago, so it's not just TdF.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:35 PM   #243
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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The first two are null...


And again, doping in the 70's does not matter.
Can you explain why the first two are null? At the time I was too small to pay attention.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:46 PM   #244
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Could you expand on this, please? I had not heard about any reliable evidence against Lefevere at that time. The Landuyt/Versele affair involved Museeuw and non Lefevere riders such as Peers, Planckaert (jr) and De Clercq.
http://www.gva.be/archief/guid/lefev...8-53da05b836e4
http://www.dopingzaak.nl/blog/2012/1...rick-lefevere/
http://www.dewielersite.net/db2/wiel...?nieuwsid=5681

Museeuw recently wrote a book where he comes clean, saying that "everybody did it". A book Lefevere tried to prevent him from writing.

It's perhaps not rock-solid evidence but there's a bad stench coming from Lefevere.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:51 PM   #245
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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I wonder what will happen to the UCI's lawsuit against him now.

The UCI oversaw the biggest sporting doping conspiracy in history. Isn't that what Kimmage basically wrote?
They should pay Kimmage and Walsh damages.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:52 PM   #246
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

At the Tour of Lombardy 1973 he had a TUE. He had cold after a race under rained (the Coppa Agostoni, I think) and drank syrup. The analysed substance, Mucantyl, is now scrapped from the banned substance list. But the organizers of the race (who controlled testing back then) did not were adamant.

In Savona 1969, the test was carried by a mobile lab sponsored by Hewlett Packard and not sanctioned by the UCI (the sanctioned lab in Italy at that time was in Rome). The positive test happened during the night and the b-test, the same night. Which he did not have the right to a b-test, which is, today, the normal procedure. When the UCI started their own investigation, the samples suddenly disappeared. Testing at that time were fairly recent and not well organised. IN any case, Merckx was cleared of all the accusation and allowed to race the Tour de France (there was a suspension!).


The first test is undisputable, though. (Edit: I mean the 3rd one, of course)

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Old 10-22-2012, 03:02 PM   #247
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Museeuw recently wrote a book where he comes clean, saying that "everybody did it". A book Lefevere tried to prevent him from writing.

It's perhaps not rock-solid evidence but there's a bad stench coming from Lefevere.
Thanks I'm going to read these articles.

But if I'm not mistaken, in that book, Museeuw said he only doped in his later years (sic). The quote "everybody did it" is more recent (last month): http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/muse...om-past-riders
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:28 PM   #248
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

Yup, as far as I can tell, Museeuw is expanding his version of the story.

It's some sort of "we all did it so, what I did was still strong" sort of tale (but maybe I'm not giving him enough credit, I didn't read the book after all, I just read some articles about it).

Lefevere has let go of Leipheimer after his witness account in the USADA case against Armstrong. Lefevere said: "I didn't read it, I didn't know it, there's nothing we can do".
Yeah, right. The Armstrong case has been building for years and years. Why did Lefevere and his team hire Leipheimer in the first place?
Some people from USADA, for starters, argue that Leipheimer was fired for breaking the "omerta" rule in cycling.

There's one thing nailing the cyclists against the wall but it's no good if the team managers and other team members dodge the bullit. That's not talking about the need to clean out the UCI.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:30 PM   #249
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Old 10-22-2012, 04:41 PM   #250
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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I still fear that we've not hit rock bottom in cycling.

Too many people with a doping history are still involved in the sport: not just the famous guys like Riis or Vinokourov but also the lesser known people involved in those teams (the physiotherapists, the mechanics, the drivers,...: many who did their part in the doping circuit).

Some years ago, Museeuw was investigated with quite a bit of evidence not only against Museeuw but also against his team manager Lefevre. Lefevre is still active as a team manager.

Plus, as long as I've been watching the sport, I remember experts saying that events like the 3 big tours (Giro, Tour de France, Vuelta) are too hard on the body to pull off with just a healthy diet. You can't win the event on just good food and water.

Despite that, the events are still tough.
Despite that and despite saying that the EPO days are behind us, cyclists are still racing up and down those hills and mountains at pretty much the same pace if not faster.

How about breaking down the sport to the core: throwing out everybody who was involved with doping, bringing the 3 big tours back to 2 weeks (for example) instead of 3 weeks,...?


I also feel sad for guys like Pantani who did what so many others did but once caught, he was standing alone to face the accusations with everybody around him (just as guilty as him) holding up their hands saying "I knew nothing".
I now also think of Eddy Merckx who stood behind Lance from the start and who is still standing behind Lance Armstrong despite the growing evidence. What to think of him now?
I am literally shocked every single time I hear this argumentation. It's logic is so profoundly, so conspicuously flawed I find it hard to believe people fail to see it.

Grand Tours have been raced since the early days of the 1900s (a bit later in the case of the Vuelta). And, lest we forget, riders did finish those races and one of them did win. That in spite of the fact that bicycles, roads and healthcare were much worse back then than they are now, and stages generally longer and harder.

How on earth would making the races easier make riders stop doping? The routes are the same for everyone. Riders don't dope so that they can complete the race, but because they want to complete the race faster than the rest.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:42 PM   #251
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

We've all won as many TDFs as Lance Armstrong.

Great day for all of us.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:44 PM   #252
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

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Good riddance, hope this is the last we hear of Armstrong.

Does this mean Ullrich will become the first 4-time Tour de France winner (and Zulle, Beloki and Basso get one each) or will the titles be vacated?
Ullrich was on the juice as well. They all were back then. The best thing to do is render those tainted Tours null and void.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:01 PM   #253
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

Yup, Ulrich and Riis at least admitted their guilt without as much pressure (any pressure ?!?). Armstrong was arrogant until the very end.
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Davis Cup should never have really mattered in the GOAT discussion anyway since it's a team event. If you're talking about the GOAT singles player then you should mainly look at individual results.
If some unknown talent came out of some random tiny country (no chance to win DC) and won 20 slams, no one would give a single shit if that player didn't have DC. The fact is, success in DC is largely determined by what country you come from or play for in the first place, which most players haven't had any control over.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:45 PM   #254
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

Ulrich was found Guilty of Doping in 2005. What are the chances that he was Clean before that?
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:50 PM   #255
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong finally banned for doping

He admitted he was not. He said he doped as far back as the early 2000s/late 1990s (not clear on that).
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Davis Cup should never have really mattered in the GOAT discussion anyway since it's a team event. If you're talking about the GOAT singles player then you should mainly look at individual results.
If some unknown talent came out of some random tiny country (no chance to win DC) and won 20 slams, no one would give a single shit if that player didn't have DC. The fact is, success in DC is largely determined by what country you come from or play for in the first place, which most players haven't had any control over.

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