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Old 08-25-2012, 02:12 AM   #136
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Originally Posted by bad gambler View Post
I'm not sure if you are being serious
Couldn't be more serious. Ullrich was the best rider of his generation and deserved the 4/5 Tours he'd have won on the road if he was not competing against the most doped up athlete in sports history.

Even if they do give him the 2000, 2001 and 2003 titles (which they probably won't, they are likely to be left vacant), it will obviously not be the same as if he had won them on the road.
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Old 08-25-2012, 02:17 AM   #137
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

george carlin on lance armstrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=tlTr2GSVUGg#!
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Old 08-25-2012, 02:32 AM   #138
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Originally Posted by Dougie View Post
Personally I can´t help but feeling that taking this "I´m done, this is enough for me"-stance speaks volumes. If he really is clean and has never taken PED´s in his life, he would fight for his reputation. Are we really supposed to believe that someone who almost died of cancer, had his testicle removed, beat the disease, won the Tour 7 times would quit now if he was innocent?? I maybe wrong, but I don´t think so.
That depends on what you believe about the justice system. If you believe in that "truth, justice and the American Way" stuff, then you go to court thinking the truth always prevails, guilty people are always found guilty and there are no wrongful convictions.

But most legal cases aren't about finding truth, they are about two sides each trying to win -- by any means necessary. Kind of similar to sport, actually.

He's probably guilty but why we have to piss all over legal process and principles just to satisfy our emotional need to see him punished is something I don't understand.
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Old 08-25-2012, 02:49 AM   #139
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Originally Posted by Fujee View Post
The governing body have been after him for years, and providing a virtual amnesty for other cyclists who may have doped in past tours, being allowed to get away with it without anyone finding out as long as they catch Armstrong just stinks of hipocrisy.
That wont happen.

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There has never been a concrete positive test sample, only speculation.
Negative, old sport! Feel free to look at the evidence that's in the public domain before swallowing Armstrong's propaganda and regurgitating it on this forum.

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Some of the blood they tested is now years old, the margin for error is substantial.
Correct (well, the first half, not the second). It was also tested years ago. What is your point?

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I don't know what to think about his innocence or not.


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He can't be bothered to spend his fortune fighting a case which is virtually settled the moment the hearing begins.
I think he hopes the evidence wont be made public now.

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There will always be speculation.
In this case, we are dealing with direct witness testimony from at least 12 people and analytical data.

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Regardless, it's a sad, sad day for cycling.
A proven (since many years ago) doper finally getting sanctioned and stripped of his titles is why?
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:58 AM   #140
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

to think i just recently bought a live strong yellow jacket on sale
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:42 AM   #141
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

Do you guys ever put yourself in their shoes. Think, you are a talented young aspiring to be cyclist and you reach the pro circuit to find out that the only way to compete with the big boys is to get on with the culture of doping in which all of the top teams do it, which will give you a decisive edge in being competitive to reach the top. Would you just go and " well, it has been great training hard and dedicating my life at this endeavor and it seems that I have the talent and could have good success becoming a Pro athlete,but never mind I am going to go work delivering Pizzas now" These are the choice many athletes not only in cycling, but in probably all major sports, have to go trough.

It takes you 5 seconds to judge from the PC, but the reality is much deeper and the choices much tougher for those directly involved. All major sports have some level of deceptiveness when it comes to doping. If you don't allocate serious competent anti-doping regulations with descent budgets, how can you expect people to play by the rules when all the incentive is on the other way? Even fans are part of it, they trow labels and words around when athletes get caught, but do they really care about the seriousness of the doping regulations or only when is opportunistic and easy with someone getting caught? Is like expecting a company to not have any frauds while having no auditing or checking mechanisms. That is not how human nature works, rules without proper enforcement, corrupts.

This is an interesting article of what reality is more like to be an aspiring pro athlete:


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/op...pagewanted=all
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:37 AM   #142
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Originally Posted by GugaF1 View Post
Do you guys ever put yourself in their shoes. Think, you are a talented young aspiring to be cyclist and you reach the pro circuit to find out that the only way to compete with the big boys is to get on with the culture of doping in which all of the top teams do it, which will give you a decisive edge in being competitive to reach the top. Would you just go and " well, it has been great training hard and dedicating my life at this endeavor and it seems that I have the talent and could have good success becoming a Pro athlete,but never mind I am going to go work delivering Pizzas now" These are the choice many athletes not only in cycling, but in probably all major sports, have to go trough.

It takes you 5 seconds to judge from the PC, but the reality is much deeper and the choices much tougher for those directly involved. All major sports have some level of deceptiveness when it comes to doping. If you don't allocate serious competent anti-doping regulations with descent budgets, how can you expect people to play by the rules when all the incentive is on the other way? Even fans are part of it, they trow labels and words around when athletes get caught, but do they really care about the seriousness of the doping regulations or only when is opportunistic and easy with someone getting caught? Is like expecting a company to not have any frauds while having no auditing or checking mechanisms. That is not how human nature works, rules without proper enforcement, corrupts.

This is an interesting article of what reality is more like to be an aspiring pro athlete:


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/op...pagewanted=all
Of course the temptation is there for any aspiring athlete, but I think the point is that the choice to cheat or go about ones career the honorable way says a lot about their character. Character is what builds a champion.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:27 AM   #143
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Plus removal of cancer from his brain. I actually think it would be reasonable to quit.
Why would it? Why would anyone quit knowing he is innocent? What does he fear?
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:35 AM   #144
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Originally Posted by Mjau! View Post
That wont happen.



Negative, old sport! Feel free to look at the evidence that's in the public domain before swallowing Armstrong's propaganda and regurgitating it on this forum.



Correct (well, the first half, not the second). It was also tested years ago. What is your point?







I think he hopes the evidence wont be made public now.



In this case, we are dealing with direct witness testimony from at least 12 people and analytical data.



A proven (since many years ago) doper finally getting sanctioned and stripped of his titles is why?

Im not saying anything either way, it certainly looks bad either way you look at it. I am just trying to offfer the most objective perspective.

He's almost certainly guilty, but there will always be reasonable doubt. There is always that chance he is actually innocent.

They all dope, its a sad fact, but it's all driven by that brand written on the jersey.

Regardless whether he is guilty or not. He's certainly the best all rounder of his generation. Pantani was probably the best climber.

With or without drugs, the tour requires concentration and tactical ability.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:16 AM   #145
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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That depends on what you believe about the justice system. If you believe in that "truth, justice and the American Way" stuff, then you go to court thinking the truth always prevails, guilty people are always found guilty and there are no wrongful convictions.

But most legal cases aren't about finding truth, they are about two sides each trying to win -- by any means necessary. Kind of similar to sport, actually.

He's probably guilty but why we have to piss all over legal process and principles just to satisfy our emotional need to see him punished is something I don't understand.
I´m not that familiar with American justice system, but I know it´s not always just about the truth, obviously there are two sides trying to win.

But still, if he is innocent, if he never took PED´s, then there can´t be any evidence against him, right? And if that would be the case, he certainly has enough money to hire lawyers skillful enough to point that out. My point is, if he never took anything illegal, he´d have nothing to fear. He wouldn´t lose his tour titles on court without rock solid evidence. The fact that he backs down now is a clear indication of the fact that he knows the opposite side has something concrete against him.

I don´t think this is about our emotional need to see him punished. Quite the opposite, I think most people ( including me) are sad to see the story en like this, since Armstrong as given so much faith and hope to so many people all over the world. I would love nothing more than to keep believing it was all done honestly, because people need thsese kind of stories, he is an inspiration and a fighter. But if he achieved all that by using illegal substances, then there can´t be a grey area, he needs to be punished accordingly. Integrity of the sport ( no matter how little of that cycling has left) must be more important than one man´s legacy.
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:04 PM   #146
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Why would it? Why would anyone quit knowing he is innocent? What does he fear?
I meant it in the sense of living for today is a lot more fun than living for yesterday. Not that I think it is likely.

I don't care. I only watch the Tour for the scenery. Now that they will be pedalling slower it will be even nicer.
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:19 PM   #147
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Of course the temptation is there for any aspiring athlete, but I think the point is that the choice to cheat or go about ones career the honorable way says a lot about their character. Character is what builds a champion.
It's not a question of mere "temptation" if you read the article, you would need to go the the 100th place to start finding people that were clean in that era of cycling, the doping testing was a joke to pass. There's no "honorable career" to go on about, when there isn't a level playing field for clean athletes to actually compete with a descent shot, specially on a sport that depends so much on the physical, such as cycling. The "honor and character" needs to be mainly on the doping enforcement and the fans that needs to demand it to be taken seriously. Otherwise there is no incentive from sports's promoters, the business around it to regulate themselves and the athletes which finds a culture of doping necessary in order to compete.
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:23 PM   #148
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

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Couldn't be more serious. Ullrich was the best rider of his generation and deserved the 4/5 Tours he'd have won on the road if he was not competing against the most doped up athlete in sports history.

Even if they do give him the 2000, 2001 and 2003 titles (which they probably won't, they are likely to be left vacant), it will obviously not be the same as if he had won them on the road.
Umm Ullrich was/is a doper also I think
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Old 08-25-2012, 04:26 PM   #149
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

Cadel Evans would win more tours and Ullrich was a dope fiend as well.
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:02 PM   #150
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Default Re: Lance Armstrong drops fight against US Anti-Doping Agency drug charges

To me it just makes no sense to dope if i am going to be caught some years down the line for sure. I cant believe there are so many idiots in Cycling.
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