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View Poll Results: What Surface is the Best?

Grass, King of the Surfaces 49 55.68%
Clay, Dirty and Mucky, worst of all European 10 11.36%
Hard, how boring? 12 13.64%
Blue Clay, the true Fedtard option 6 6.82%
Carpet, It should return! (vote for this and you probably still have a mullet) 6 6.82%
Tesco lunch is just £2.50, beats the crap out of the McDonalds Meal deal eh? 3 3.41%
Surfaces will fall, along with Federer 2 2.27%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-05-2004, 11:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: What is your favourite surface

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Old 02-05-2004, 11:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: Re: What is your favourite surface

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeWHitler
Verkerk only played on grass for the first time last year. So were Malivai Washington or Chris Lewis talented players? I doubt if they were more talented than say Petr Korda or Rios to use an example who never made Wimbledon finals, but had success on other surfaces.
There are always exceptions but look how often it happens on clay. 2003 Verkerk
2002 Costa
1999 Medvedev

And thats just the finals I remmember.

Quote:
Agassi vs Nalbandian who would win on clay? Then who would win on grass? Do you think Agassi would win on both, or just on grass? The fitness levels would be cancelled out, so who do you think would win and why?
I did say players very similar in ability and talent. Peak Agassi is more talented then David so at peak he would probably win on both.

How about Agassi v Muster? On grass Agassi would win due to talent, on Clay Muster's fitness would play a huge factor in his win.
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Old 02-05-2004, 11:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyveN
There are always exceptions but look how often it happens on clay. 2003 Verkerk
2002 Costa
1999 Medvedev

And thats just the finals I remmember.
With Costa clay is his surface and while it was a surprise he won in 2002, he had previously been a force on clay since 1995 and had been favoured to win it previously, the timing was surprising.

Well Medvedev he wasn't a gimp either. He moved from 225 to 22 in one year, and he won 4 TMS titles. With him he had injuries, Anke Huber and lost the interest after his big breakthrough.

There have been surprise finalists at all the Slams, and this will more likely continue. Also with the clay there is a wider possibility of finding a different winner at the FO.

Quote:
How about Agassi v Muster? On grass Agassi would win due to talent, on Clay Muster's fitness would play a huge factor in his win.
With Muster and Agassi, if it wasn't for Gilbert Muster would have kept Agassi's backside in a sling. Yes, it wasn't just cause of fitness that Muster was beating Agassi, it was tactical as well. Undoubtedly Agassi would have had the advantage of grass mainly because he returned better and on that surface would deal better with bad bounces than Muster. Muster was nowhere near as talented as Agassi.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: What is your favourite surface

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeWHitler
Muster was nowhere near as talented as Agassi.
That's my point. Why do you think the talent gap decreases on clay?
Is it because Muster's game was more suited for clay then Agassi's or because Muster was far fitter then Agassi?

Why is it that many of the players who are considered extremely talented (Sampras, McEnroe) could never adapt to clay? Surely their talent should have covered any advantages the clay courters had.

Last edited by WyveN : 02-05-2004 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 02-05-2004, 01:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyveN
Why is it that many of the players who are considered extremely talented (Sampras, McEnroe) could never adapt to clay? Surely their talent should have covered any advantages the clay courters had.
That's true to an extent, but in Sampras's case I think it was a case of the old movement issue, and as you have mentioned previously the fitness and the fact he wasn't a tactical genius combined to frustrate him. Clay exposes weaknesses in a different manner than on other surfaces.

McEnroe wasn't that bad on the dirt, though his fitness was his main problem, and still kills him that he threw away that French Open against Lendl in 84.

Then we have a guy like Federer who already is a better claycourter than Sampras and McEnroe, then again he spent 6 months of youth training on the clay and for someone's worst surface he is very good.

Then another surprise is a guy like Rosset who won titles on all surfaces and beat 5 guys in top 30 inc 2 Spaniards to win in Barcelona. There are always intagibles, and we could discuss this for quite a while. As you know it's not just all about natural talent.

With the Muster thing well how many people were fitter than that guy? He was raised on clay and that combined with fitness helped him, though Agassi in his younger years just kept feeding him pace and Muster ate it up, until Gilbert changed that.

Ok, we have a guy like Wilander who could win 2 AO's on grass, but he never had a chance at Wimbledon. He and Agassi were the last 2 players to win Slams on both surfaces, though Wilander had a shorter gap in between his successes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:23 PM   #21
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Default Re: Re: What is your favourite surface

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyveN
If you get 2 players, ranked very close to each other who have played only on hardcourts.

Put them on a clay court and the fitter of the two will win

Put them on a grass court and the more talented of the two will win

It is no coincidence wimbledon doesn't get the Verkerk types in the finals
Do you remember the (I think it was 1994) Wimbledon Final?
Pete vs Goran?

Tennis with almost no backhands, no forehands, there were almost not even volleys, they didnt even need to move around the court much because all they did was to serve and to return.
Goran and Pete played their game (ace/unreturnable or double fault) and the guy who served better won.

I dont think that is the purest most enjoyable tenis.It certainly doesnt look at all like the grass court tennis from the 70's played with wood rackets.
If you watch Wilander vs Vilas from 1982 and Costa vs Ferrero from 2002 you can say, tennis has not changed that much, it looks like tennis on clay.

But Pete vs Goran doesnt look like Grass court tennis from the 70's or early 80's.
I dont think you can call it purest.
If tennis had been invented yesterday, with modern rackets and modern athletes, I think playing tennis on grass would not be considered a very good idea.

After the final, the british journalists asked pete if there was something that could be done to see more rallies on wimbledon, and Pete said, if you want to see rallies when I play Ivanisevic, you will have to pour some clay there.

It is also the only tournament in which your serve can take you quite far, you can reach the later rounds by having only one good stroke.
Take for example Arthurs, Rusedski or last year Karlovic.

Verkerk is the only surprise RG finalist in recent years, Medvedev won 4 tms on clay, and Costa won tms on clay and many other tournaments on clay.
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: What is your favourite surface

Clay

my favs like it plus the terrible 4some don't
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: Re: Re: What is your favourite surface

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisLurker
Tennis with almost no backhands, no forehands, there were almost not even volleys, they didnt even need to move around the court much because all they did was to serve and to return.
Goran and Pete played their game (ace/unreturnable or double fault) and the guy who served better won.
I guess your point is that Pete won all 7 Wimbledons using his serve? Did you enjoy Hewitt-Nalbandian final more, probably the worst grand slam final of the past decade.

Quote:
I dont think that is the purest most enjoyable tenis.It certainly doesnt look at all like the grass court tennis from the 70's played with wood rackets.
I admit the powerful serve has taken a little bit from grass court tennis, such as 1 break of serve usually meets the set but if you think there can't be quality tennis on grass courts, watch Federer in last years Wimbledon semis. It is the highest level of tennis played all year imo.

Quote:
If you watch Wilander vs Vilas from 1982 and Costa vs Ferrero from 2002 you can say, tennis has not changed that much, it looks like tennis on clay.
Ferrero played absolutely terrible and it was right up there with the dullest matches of all time.
It is endless baseline rallies, what can possibly change?
If anything Verkerk was refreshing because he brought a different style to clay.

Quote:
It is also the only tournament in which your serve can take you quite far, you can reach the later rounds by having only one good stroke.
Take for example Arthurs, Rusedski or last year Karlovic.
Clay is the only surface where fitness can take you quite far.
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: What is your favourite surface

I like tennis on grass, but I don't really know why.
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: What is your favourite surface

Actually claycourt tennis has changed Wyver, then again you not being a huge fan of it, have not noticed it as much.

Ok, when Bruguera was dominating it was very very heavy topspin down the middle, and he was hitting the ball on the way down. Then Muster got more pace whilst hitting heavy spin and pounded the corners, and he dominated with his physical will and more pro active play, then the Bruguera types weren't as effective, plus they sped up the court speed at RG and that lead to the likes of Guga, then Ferrero doesn't play the typical old school clay court game.

It is mainly a preference, you seem to like a faster form of tennis, whereas it's more tactical on clay.
I will use a football analogy grasscourt tennis is like the English Premier League and clay is more like the Serie A does that help?

How did Borg win 6 French and 5 Wimbledons then? It wasn't only because of his great passing shots and fitness.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: Re: What is your favourite surface

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunk18bsb
I like tennis on grass, but I don't really know why.
Because its fast and exciting?
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Old 02-05-2004, 04:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: What is your favourite surface

Fast it is, but exciting not necessarily.
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On Nadal bumping him on the changeover, Rosol said: "It's ok, he wanted to take my concentration; I knew he would try something".


Wilander on Dimitrov - "He has mind set on imitating Federer and yes it looks good. But he has no idea what to do on the court".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 02-05-2004, 07:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: Re: What is your favourite surface

Quote:
Originally Posted by WyveN
If you get 2 players, ranked very close to each other who have played only on hardcourts.

Put them on a clay court and the fitter of the two will win

Put them on a grass court and the more talented of the two will win

It is no coincidence wimbledon doesn't get the Verkerk types in the finals
What about Pioline, Malivai and Kraichek making the Finals? Ivanicevic?

Wimbleton has a fast playing surface, with an inconvenient bounce. Skilled servers and vollyers are at a huge advantage.

Just as grinders are at a big advantage on Clay.

That is why my two favorite surfaces are RebAce and DecoTurf.

US Open is my favorite Slam.
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Old 02-05-2004, 07:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
Well Medvedev he wasn't a gimp either. He moved from 225 to 22 in one year, and he won 4 TMS titles. With him he had injuries, Anke Huber and lost the interest after his big breakthrough.
Safin and Kafelnikov got all the credit for being very talened but underachieving Soviets.

But Medvedev was arguably AS talented (more talented if Evgeny's former coach is to be believed) and eveb MORE underachiving.

Charming, fluent-English speaking Med actually rose as high as 4th or 5th in thr ATP rankings. And, yes, that German twat played some orle in him losing interest in tennis.

But he was by no means "talentled" and at his best, he had everything : serve, volley, FH, BH, lob and fitness.
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Old 02-05-2004, 10:28 PM   #30
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Default Re: What is your favourite surface

Clay of course. Its a surface that really favors patience and strategy --besides France is the true and original birthplace of tennis no matter what the Wimbledon crowd may say.

I agree with Rios in believing that modern day tennis (or any sport involving bouncing balls for that matter) just isn't meant to be played on grass. Its a dying surface for a reason.

Technique aside, I also think the grass surface and Wimbledon conjures up too many images of old-world rich elitism, which, in turn, have helped brand tennis as an elite richman's sport to the common Joe for years. Its an image that still burdens the sport a bit even today I believe. And its something Id like to see dissipate. But I can see how people are attracted to the sense of its tradition and all, and thats fine but I personally find grass to be very boring and overrated as a surface.
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