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Old 07-24-2012, 03:14 PM   #91
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
And you do understand that that is the entire point of this whole little conversation? The US was the first nation of the modern world to enact such laws. And we had huge influence on creating them elsewhere and still do. That's the ENTIRE POINT.
So? That makes you superior to the UK, Germany, France, even Australia, how, exactly? How does that necessarily make your laws or your protection of those rights superior to the same in those other countries? You're just blowing a smoke screen of jingoistic patriotic nothing here.

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And the US has always largely maintained those rights and never had an absolute tyrannical leader or government in large part because the population is not only freedom-loving, but also well-armed. Stripping that right would set a precedent that would undermine everything else. Especially when you are allowing such rights to be dictated by maniacs and the miniscule exceptions to the rule.
Freedom is for everyone...except those poor, inferior blackies. Don't talk like America has a pristine track record in protecting rights, because your history shows that it's not true. You can go on all you want about how white men fought for the liberties of their descendants (white descendants, may I add), but it doesn't erase the glaring gloss on the history of your great nation.

I might have misrepresented myself, but I don't really think that the right to bear arms should be abolished per se. But why can't tighter laws be enacted? Why does a civilian need an assault weapon? How does it make sense that bullets are apparently sold alongside other household items in supermarkets? If a driver of a car needs to be licenced, why shouldn't a holder of a gun be similarly licenced?

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Originally Posted by orangehat View Post
trip, having lived in singapore for 13 years and the last year in the states, I can tell you that it is quite different.

Even if guns were banned, the fact is the US as a whole is too big and police response time is inefficient. It's not possible to have constant police patrols in areas, and lights are too cost-inefficient as a whole. As such, it's much more likely for muggings or other stuff. The same for home invasions, if some madman were to come smashing into your house, much less likely for someone to report it or what not. So people like to have arms for self-defense, which is not that ridiculous. Of course, the argument can be made that when guns are allowed, the attackers have guns too, but in self-defense occasions you probably still will have the upper hand.

As such I think it's fair for certain allowances for firearms.
I see your point. I know that Singapore is very different from the US (we owe a lot of our success to the fact that we're so small and thus relatively easy to govern) and believe me, I think it's ludicrous that the death penalty is the legislated punishment for the illegal possession of firearms. Still, I gotta say that I just feel a lot safer living in a country where people who are not trained police officers or military personnels carry guns around, a country where guns are not easily accessible to criminals and crazy people like the Aurora shooter.

That said, I don't disagree that it makes sense at a certain level for homeowners to keep a gun at home for protection; but it seems to me that the situation in America has gotten so out of control that barely anyone is surprised when a mass shooting happens.

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What I do not agree with, however, are guns in public areas (like cinemas), or on the roads. Guns should be for self-defense and self-defense only. The argument that someone who had a gun in the cinema would have helped is stupid. Unless you're a military grade sniper or something, you're unlikely to hit your target in such poor visibility. The same goes for any crowded public area, you're only going to make it worse.

What I also don't agree with is the stupid thing that is the NRA and the stupid politicians (mostly republicans) who keep taking donations from that stupid organization. BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS AND BAN WEAPONS WITH LARGE NUMBER OF ROUNDS. That is so freaking instinctive.
I agree. I'm not sure if the Democrats are calling for an outright ban, but surely stricter controls is a reasonable compromise.

Also, the NRA strikes me as a bunch of lunatics. I went to their website for the first time today and was freaked out by the layout.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:15 PM   #92
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Strong enforcement measures and a competent government do not equal a police state. The government's job is to govern, which includes enacting laws and putting in place measures to keep the country as safe as possible while balancing other competing rights and interests. Sounds like you'd rather live in an anarchical state instead.
Where was police when this guy in Denver went on a rampage? And I don't want to live in anarchy, I just want the government to get off my back and allow me to protect my family. Maybe you don't feel that way because in Asian culture Government is there to rule, not serve.
I'm not sure, but I think the Serbian law states the only way I can shoot the armed burglar is if there is no way police can arrive on time, and I'm cornered and wounded and sure he will kill me. If one of those conditions is not met, I can go to prison for murder. Do you think that's normal?
(This is probably the situation in all of Europe.)
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:16 PM   #93
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Perfect? Whoever said that? No straw man bs here. There is plenty of violence and crime in the US. Gun laws only affect law-abiding citizens. It's the old cliche. Outlaw guns and then only the outlaws have guns.

And I've owned semi-automatic and converted assault weapons my entire life. And I've never used one on anyone else. Why should I have to give them up because of the actions of some loser in Colorado? I've always carried a concealed weapon for 8 years and never used it. Yet I should give up the right because of inner-city violence? Like I said, that's not the kind of nation I want to live in.
Why do you need these specific weapons?
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:21 PM   #94
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

Because I enjoy shooting and collecting firearms. As do a great many others that I shoot with, including many police. None of whom has ever used any of these weapons on another person. That's the point. Making the lunatic exception the dictator of the law is not what anyone should want.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:22 PM   #95
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

would like to contribute to the discussion but can't get myself to read thru all the pages. anyway, go trip
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:24 PM   #96
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Originally Posted by vucina View Post
Where was police when this guy in Denver went on a rampage? And I don't want to live in anarchy, I just want the government to get off my back and allow me to protect my family. Maybe you don't feel that way because in Asian culture Government is there to rule, not serve.
I'm not sure, but I think the Serbian law states the only way I can shoot the armed burglar is if there is no way police can arrive on time, and I'm cornered and wounded and sure he will kill me. If one of those conditions is not met, I can go to prison for murder. Do you think that's normal?
(This is probably the situation in all of Europe.)
I subscribe to Western concepts of government, thanks; hence my disaffection towards my own government. That said, the guy in Denver went on a rampage because he was mad, AND because he had easy access to the means with which to go on the said rampage. Had there been stricter controls in place, the chances of him getting his hands on those same weapons would probably have been a lot lower. How does it make sense for it to be legal for any random guy on the streets to buy virtually any weapon that he wants? That appears to be what has happened in this case. It's not about where the police was when it happened; it's about how it was even allowed (to use this word loosely) to have happened in the first place. This is perhaps an extreme example and yes, Singapore isn't really the right comparison, but I can't help but think of this massive manhunt for this national serviceman (a kid of 18 or 19) who ran out of camp with an assault rifle because he was pissed at his girlfriend. One guy stole a rifle and the whole country panicked. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't need to worry about being shot by some loony when I re-watch the Dark Knight Rises in IMAX this weekend.

And yes, I think that's relatively normal, except the requirement that you need to be wounded which seems a bit stringent. That said, it's rational because citizens can't go around shooting people and claim that they were threatened. The government and the law has to protect the interest of the alleged offender as well.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:27 PM   #97
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

Come on Trips, people enjoying shooting are weirdos.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:27 PM   #98
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

tripwires, you do understand that most of US law enforcement and the US military are drawn from the right-wing and are among the most fierce proponents of gun rights? Like I said, your argument just appears as nonsensical as the Occupy movements incessant protesting of the government, while advocating that in reality, the government should control everything in our lives. Health care, guns, businesses, etc...
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:28 PM   #99
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Because I enjoy shooting and collecting firearms. As do a great many others that I shoot with, including many police. None of whom has ever used any of these weapons on another person. That's the point. Making the lunatic exception the dictator of the law is not what anyone should want.
That's great. If only everyone could be as responsible as you. The fact is, that's not possible, as the most recent shooting has shown. Again, I ask: But why can't tighter laws be enacted? Why does a civilian need an assault weapon? How does it make sense that bullets are apparently sold alongside other household items in supermarkets? If a driver of a car needs to be licenced, why shouldn't a holder of a gun be similarly licenced?

This Denver guy isn't just one lunatic. Like I posted earlier today, the US is known for such incidents. Surely you know them better than me: Columbine, Virginia Tech, and a host of others. Doesn't this worry you? I'm not even American and it worries me greatly.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:31 PM   #100
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Come on Trips, people enjoying shooting are weirdos.
Right. And I'm sure the people who dye their hair like clowns, have numerous piercings and create incredibly pretentious art, poetry and music are free-spirits and the most important people in the world? Yeah, you can save that for the Paris coffee shops.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:31 PM   #101
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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tripwires, you do understand that most of US law enforcement and the US military are drawn from the right-wing and are among the most fierce proponents of gun rights? Like I said, your argument just appears as nonsensical as the Occupy movements incessant protesting of the government, while advocating that in reality, the government should control everything in our lives. Health care, guns, businesses, etc...
If the law says that you have to do X or be punished, those right-wing loonies can't do Y, no?

The government's job is to regulate. Regulate. Regulate. Regulate. It's nice to imagine total freedom, but that's just a fantasy. The government cannot completely not interfere in the lives of the citizens. When there is a problem, it's the government's job to step up and fix it.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:32 PM   #102
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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I subscribe to Western concepts of government, thanks; hence my disaffection towards my own government. That said, the guy in Denver went on a rampage because he was mad, AND because he had easy access to the means with which to go on the said rampage. Had there been stricter controls in place, the chances of him getting his hands on those same weapons would probably have been a lot lower. How does it make sense for it to be legal for any random guy on the streets to buy virtually any weapon that he wants? That appears to be what has happened in this case. It's not about where the police was when it happened; it's about how it was even allowed (to use this word loosely) to have happened in the first place. This is perhaps an extreme example and yes, Singapore isn't really the right comparison, but I can't help but think of this massive manhunt for this national serviceman (a kid of 18 or 19) who ran out of camp with an assault rifle because he was pissed at his girlfriend. One guy stole a rifle and the whole country panicked. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't need to worry about being shot by some loony when I re-watch the Dark Knight Rises in IMAX this weekend.

And yes, I think that's relatively normal, except the requirement that you need to be wounded which seems a bit stringent. That said, it's rational because citizens can't go around shooting people and claim that they were threatened. The government and the law has to protect the interest of the alleged offender as well.
The weapon buyer should have a clearance from a psychologist, but other than that, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:34 PM   #103
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
tripwires, you do understand that most of US law enforcement and the US military are drawn from the right-wing and are among the most fierce proponents of gun rights? Like I said, your argument just appears as nonsensical as the Occupy movements incessant protesting of the government, while advocating that in reality, the government should control everything in our lives. Health care, guns, businesses, etc...
The Occupy movement isn't primarily protesting the government

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That's great. If only everyone could be as responsible as you. The fact is, that's not possible, as the most recent shooting has shown. Again, I ask: But why can't tighter laws be enacted? Why does a civilian need an assault weapon? How does it make sense that bullets are apparently sold alongside other household items in supermarkets? If a driver of a car needs to be licenced, why shouldn't a holder of a gun be similarly licenced?

This Denver guy isn't just one lunatic. Like I posted earlier today, the US is known for such incidents. Surely you know them better than me: Columbine, Virginia Tech, and a host of others. Doesn't this worry you? I'm not even American and it worries me greatly.

The fact is a lot of americans, like a lot of humans, are selfish. They don't care .... until it affects them.
After someone from their family gets shot they'll probably change their views.

It's just like gay people. A lot of people hated them ... until they had a family member who was gay.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #104
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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Right. And I'm sure the people who dye their hair like clowns, have numerous piercings and create incredibly pretentious art, poetry and music are free-spirits and the most important people in the world? Yeah, you can save that for the Paris coffee shops.

Never heard something as stupid as this.

Go away polish your guns.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #105
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Default Re: 12 killed and 59 wounded in Denver shooting at a Batman showing

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But why can't tighter laws be enacted? Why does a civilian need an assault weapon? How does it make sense that bullets are apparently sold alongside other household items in supermarkets? If a driver of a car needs to be licenced, why shouldn't a holder of a gun be similarly licenced?
What tighter laws are you proposing? You can't own automatic weapons. You have to go through a bunch of bs red tape to own handguns and semi-automatic assault rifles. You need licenses. And you have to go through all kinds of training and background checks to get a concealed weapons permit. It's virtually impossible in the cities, where the vast majority of gun violence occurs. And finding ammunition in supermarkets is laughable. Heh. And history has shown us that one gun law just leads to another. It was auto weapons first, now it's handguns and soon it will be rifles and shotguns. That's the way these arrogant activists work.
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