Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1] - Page 65 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Closed Thread

Old 02-08-2013, 05:57 AM   #961
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,504
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
Why does it say that Cilic has gained 45 points, yet he's still on 2375 from last week, he didn't have any points to defend cause he was injured last year at this time.
Cilic's gain is 45 (because he gets a 45 in his non-countables), but his Effective gain (marked in the second column) is 0. He must score more than 90 points in order to make more points. Please read the instructions in the OP.

Quote:
- The Gain column displays the total number of points the player has raised at the current tournament.
- The Effective column is the exact number of points the player will win or lose at the next official ranking. The total here is calculated based on all tournaments dropped and all tournaments played (GS qualies, Futures and all other tournaments that will be counted at the next official rankings). The color is determined again by the tournament with most points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
Howcome it says Simon is on the same points as las week, when he has SF points to defend in Montpellier, unless those points come off next week?
Simon defends nothing this week. This week only Davis Cup points drop out. Since last year, ATP has moved Davis Cup back one week. Montpellier was dropped last week. Please check the past Official Rankings link in the OP and here to see Simon dropping 90 points last week.

If you have more questions, please ask. I'll be happy to answer.
Slasher1985 is online now View My Blog!  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 02-08-2013, 06:20 AM   #962
country flag J99
Registered User
 
J99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,119
J99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Cilic's gain is 45 (because he gets a 45 in his non-countables), but his Effective gain (marked in the second column) is 0. He must score more than 90 points in order to make more points. Please read the instructions in the OP.





Simon defends nothing this week. This week only Davis Cup points drop out. Since last year, ATP has moved Davis Cup back one week. Montpellier was dropped last week. Please check the past Official Rankings link in the OP and here to see Simon dropping 90 points last week.

If you have more questions, please ask. I'll be happy to answer.
Thanks.

Since Simon has nothing to defend this week, and his points are the same like Cilic's, it's the same thing with him as Cilic right?
__________________
Best TT singles rank: 23
Best TT doubles rank: 55

TT stats site: http://mtftt.info/

Melzer, Rafa, Fognini, Murray, Pospisil, Ferrer, Haas, Dolgopolov, Almagro, Janowicz, Kohlschreiber, plus a lot more, mostly, if not all clay courters.
J99 is offline View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 06:24 AM   #963
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,504
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
Since Simon has nothing to defend this week, and his points are the same like Cilic's, it's the same thing with him as Cilic right?
Wait. Simon has 2375, and Cilic 2235. They're not the same amount. If you see otherwise, please clear your cache and reload the OP. If you do see this, maybe I'm not getting what you're asking.
Slasher1985 is online now View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 06:29 AM   #964
country flag J99
Registered User
 
J99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,119
J99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Wait. Simon has 2375, and Cilic 2235. They're not the same amount. If you see otherwise, please clear your cache and reload the OP. If you do see this, maybe I'm not getting what you're asking.
I meant that they both are still on the same points even though they have 45.
__________________
Best TT singles rank: 23
Best TT doubles rank: 55

TT stats site: http://mtftt.info/

Melzer, Rafa, Fognini, Murray, Pospisil, Ferrer, Haas, Dolgopolov, Almagro, Janowicz, Kohlschreiber, plus a lot more, mostly, if not all clay courters.
J99 is offline View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 06:40 AM   #965
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,504
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

I get you now. They are on effective 0, but they don't have the same potential this week.

Cilic must score more than 90 points to effectively gain points, whilst Simon can get more points simply by winning another match (more than 45 points at this tournament), in which case he will get to 2280. If both Cilic and Simon win their tournaments, they will be 12th and 13th this Monday, with 2535 points (Cilic) and 2440 points (Simon).
Slasher1985 is online now View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 06:56 AM   #966
country flag J99
Registered User
 
J99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,119
J99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond reputeJ99 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Are these dropped points from players who are not playing this week from Davis Cup?

I noticed that most of them stay on the same points, except for Almagro who actually has dropped 45, why is that?
__________________
Best TT singles rank: 23
Best TT doubles rank: 55

TT stats site: http://mtftt.info/

Melzer, Rafa, Fognini, Murray, Pospisil, Ferrer, Haas, Dolgopolov, Almagro, Janowicz, Kohlschreiber, plus a lot more, mostly, if not all clay courters.
J99 is offline View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:07 AM   #967
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,504
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J99 View Post
Are these dropped points from players who are not playing this week from Davis Cup?

I noticed that most of them stay on the same points, except for Almagro who actually has dropped 45, why is that?
Yes they are. But they don't represent the effective number of points each player will lose from their rankings, just the number of points that will be taken out from their Davis Cup total (the exact points scored last year this Monday).

For instance, Berdych drops the 40 from last year, but he made 80 this year, 80 which is already inside his Davis Cup total. The 40 dropped from last year is irrelevant to his DC total.
Tsonga drops the 80 from last year, which is currently part of his DC total still. He only scored 40 this year, and this 40 will replace last year's 80, thusly Tsonga will lose 40 points effectively.
Almagro is dropping the 40 from last year, and since he didn't play at all this year, this will impact the tournament out of his countables.
Raonic is like Berdych.
Fish is like Almagro.

So, to generalize, the DC ranking rules state that when DC rounds are played earlier the next year, between that date and the drop date, the maximum number of points between the two years are still part of the ranking, and after the drop date, only the points from the current year. That is why most of the DC points dropped from last year have no effective relevance this year, with the few exceptions you see. I hope you understood.
Slasher1985 is online now View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 08:21 AM   #968
country flag Pratik
Registered User
 
Pratik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Rheinland-Pfalz
Posts: 7,905
Pratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

@Slasher:

When do DC bonus points drop? Does the player have to repeat the same performance the next year to keep them till the final?

I asked this earlier in the thread too, but didn't get any reply(duong replied, but (s)he wasn't too sure).
Pratik is offline View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 08:37 AM   #969
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,504
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
@Slasher:

When do DC bonus points drop? Does the player have to repeat the same performance the next year to keep them till the final?

I asked this earlier in the thread too, but didn't get any reply(duong replied, but (s)he wasn't too sure).
The bonus points drop exactly like any other DC points. 52 weeks after they entered. That will always be when the DC Final points drop out, because they cannot be gained before it.
Slasher1985 is online now View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 09:53 AM   #970
country flag Pratik
Registered User
 
Pratik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Rheinland-Pfalz
Posts: 7,905
Pratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
The bonus points drop exactly like any other DC points. 52 weeks after they entered. That will always be when the DC Final points drop out, because they cannot be gained before it.
That's what I thought. But that presents a possible interesting scenario:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
I just realised that I do not know when the bonus points of DC are dropped. The most obvious answer would seem that they would drop when the final points are dropped the next year. But, consider this scenario: Player X gets both the team bonus and the performance bonus in a particular year. The next year the player does not play any DC match. Now at year end(after WTF)* he would still have 350275 DC points in his rankings, 200125 of which are as a result of matches he played in the previous year, some over 18 months ago.
*after WTF and before DC F.
**The points are reduced by 75 as that time I had mistakenly counted both the bonuses, which is not possible(Thanks to duong for pointing that out to me)


Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
Both bonuses can't be cumulated (at most you can have 625 points in a year from the rulebook).

Yes I think they drop 52 weeks after the final.
Edit: @duong: The conversation being on DC, I remembered my old question. Since you weren't sure about it being dropped after 52 weeks, I thought I'd run it through Slasher as well. It's not that I don't trust your answer.

Last edited by Pratik : 02-08-2013 at 09:59 AM.
Pratik is offline View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:02 AM   #971
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,504
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

The bonus didn't help the player in his rankings before it was given. Thusly, it doesn't matter that it is a result of matches played more than 18 months before WTF. The player only gained the points because of participating in the final as well, and only after the final. So, it's not like he had points helping his ranking for 18 months before dropping out.
Slasher1985 is online now View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:53 AM   #972
country flag duong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,346
duong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
The bonus didn't help the player in his rankings before it was given. Thusly, it doesn't matter that it is a result of matches played more than 18 months before WTF. The player only gained the points because of participating in the final as well, and only after the final. So, it's not like he had points helping his ranking for 18 months before dropping out.
yes, the ATP has a general principle of points staying in the rankings for 52 weeks (the exception being the WTF).

It doesn't necessarily mean that they are only the result of tournaments played 52 weeks before, there are some "limit" cases :

- futures which are counted in the rankings one week after they happen, then still count 52 weeks later

- zeropointers for not playing 4 ATP500 tournaments in a calendar year which are the result of what the player did in the whole calendar year but are only counted once it's certain that the player will not be able to play 4 ATP500 tournaments in the calendar year. They stay in the rankings for 52 weeks. See Monfils's case who has some zeropointers which will stay in his rankings until july and october whereas he had stopped playing for long in july last year (Del Potro had the same problem when he came back from injury : I really think they should adapt the rule in that case of commitment players who are injured for many months).

The bonus points here can probably be considered as entering the same category.
__________________
useless old guy
duong is offline View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:04 AM   #973
country flag Pratik
Registered User
 
Pratik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Rheinland-Pfalz
Posts: 7,905
Pratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond reputePratik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

@Slasher: I get your point. The points stay in the system only for 52 weeks.
I still find it a bit weird. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting your beloved rankings system. I realize that something like this has to happen for any sort of bonus.

On another note, Youzhny is one win away from re-entering the top 32(by pushing Stepanek out). With the injury(surgery), it is going to very tough for Steps to be seeded in RG. He is defending over 300 points, which I doubt he will be able to do.

Llodra is one win(maybe two, depending on Haase and Ramos) away from re-entering the top 50(after almost a year)
Pratik is offline View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:23 AM   #974
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,504
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
@Slasher: I get your point. The points stay in the system only for 52 weeks.
I still find it a bit weird. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting your beloved rankings system. I realize that something like this has to happen for any sort of bonus.
It is not my beloved ranking system. It's ATP's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
On another note, Youzhny is one win away from re-entering the top 32(by pushing Stepanek out). With the injury(surgery), it is going to very tough for Steps to be seeded in RG. He is defending over 300 points, which I doubt he will be able to do.
Youzhny already did that if you look at the current live rankings, because Steps is dropping last year's DC points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pratik View Post
Llodra is one win(maybe two, depending on Haase and Ramos) away from re-entering the top 50(after almost a year)
Only if Ramos and Haase don't win an extra match.
Slasher1985 is online now View My Blog!  
Old 02-08-2013, 12:26 PM   #975
country flag amirbachar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Age: 28
Posts: 567
amirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond reputeamirbachar has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Unofficial Live ATP Rankings [in Post #1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
yes, the ATP has a general principle of points staying in the rankings for 52 weeks (the exception being the WTF).

It doesn't necessarily mean that they are only the result of tournaments played 52 weeks before, there are some "limit" cases :

- futures which are counted in the rankings one week after they happen, then still count 52 weeks later

- zeropointers for not playing 4 ATP500 tournaments in a calendar year which are the result of what the player did in the whole calendar year but are only counted once it's certain that the player will not be able to play 4 ATP500 tournaments in the calendar year. They stay in the rankings for 52 weeks. See Monfils's case who has some zeropointers which will stay in his rankings until july and october whereas he had stopped playing for long in july last year (Del Potro had the same problem when he came back from injury : I really think they should adapt the rule in that case of commitment players who are injured for many months).

The bonus points here can probably be considered as entering the same category.
In addition to that, through seeding, this week's result may impact future results, so they don't completely disappear after 52 weeks.
__________________
My sports blog:
http://simtheworld.blogspot.com/
amirbachar is offline View My Blog!  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios