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Old 06-11-2012, 08:58 AM   #1
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Default Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film



http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americ...304421679.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-18390644

What do you MTF Chileans think?
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:10 AM   #2
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

Pinochet will always be a figure that divides people. But he is just one facet of the sad story of US interventions in Latin America. It's sad because the US influence was originally very positive. This unfortunate negative impact has lasted for more than a century now and has fostered appearance of all the far left and far right governments in Latin America, to this day. Pinochet and Castro are products of such policies to equal extent.

After the Civil War in the States, the Northerners learned how to dominate with weapons...how to impose will and economic models. The old American isolationism was buried when the US for the first time built formidable armed forces and intelligence network to advance economic interests, which sadly collided with the things Americans stood for originally. Until that time, many Latin American countries in 19th century, like Argentina for ex. were going well economically, Argentina was on par with the USA, I think, and all of them including the USA were peaceful with "Europe just leave us alone" attitude. I will always consider myself pro-US, just for the noble ideas and the fundamentals. But people are greedy, Americans or any other nations in the world. And if you have powerful army and economy it's really challenging not to use them to satisfy that... so Theo Roosevelt kicked the Spanish "tyrants" out of America - for what - just to replace them with US hegemony...Placed The "Roosevelt Corollary" into Monroe doctrine to effectively and entirely change its spirit.

That Spanish War was the beginning of what is now so common - distorting and twisting facts in order to make American public eager to take arms.
Hearst : "You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war!" In 1898 when the U.S. warship Maine mysteriously exploded and sank in Havana Harbor, killing 258 U.S. Navy crewmen, the American public assumed it had been attacked or sabotaged and demanded war."

This was the first one in the series of fake things that followed with appallingly similar pattern, every time there was a need to drag Americans into a war it has been replicated throughout the 20th century and beyond.

And behind all that, there is basically greed - the mother of all evils. I don't mean to say that Americans never fought for just causes, like in a WW2, but the US impact in Latin America has been disastrous.

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Old 06-11-2012, 04:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
What do you MTF Chileans think?
you might as well named me personally but it doesn't matter. i'm glad to take the bait

pinochet and his supporters are mostly absolute scum. yet, i don't think it's a good idea to get into trouble by trying to beat them up as it happened yesterday. i can understand the reactions, though.

good thing is that more and more people today are starting to realize that pinochet was a dictator, a human rights abuser and a man who enriched himself and his right wing cronies while he was in power. his last days were passed in detention centres in london begging for mercy. it was a shame he never got convicted but at the same time it was strange to see what he had become: the sick shadow of a once powerful dictator, spending his days between lawyers and asking for money to the big shots he had once helped so much.
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

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Originally Posted by ssin View Post
Pinochet will always be a figure that divides people. But he is just one facet of the sad story of US interventions in Latin America. It's sad because the US influence was originally very positive. This unfortunate negative impact has lasted for more than a century now and has fostered appearance of all the far left and far right governments in Latin America, to this day. Pinochet and Castro are products of such policies to equal extent.

After the Civil War in the States, the Northerners learned how to dominate with weapons...how to impose will and economic models. The old American isolationism was buried when the US for the first time built formidable armed forces and intelligence network to advance economic interests, which sadly collided with the things Americans stood for originally. Until that time, many Latin American countries in 19th century, like Argentina for ex. were going well economically, Argentina was on par with the USA, I think, and all of them including the USA were peaceful with "Europe just leave us alone" attitude. I will always consider myself pro-US, just for the noble ideas and the fundamentals. But people are greedy, Americans or any other nations in the world. And if you have powerful army and economy it's really challenging not to use them to satisfy that... so Theo Roosevelt kicked the Spanish "tyrants" out of America - for what - just to replace them with US hegemony...Placed The "Roosevelt Corollary" into Monroe doctrine to effectively and entirely change its spirit.

That Spanish War was the beginning of what is now so common - distorting and twisting facts in order to make American public eager to take arms.
Hearst : "You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war!" In 1898 when the U.S. warship Maine mysteriously exploded and sank in Havana Harbor, killing 258 U.S. Navy crewmen, the American public assumed it had been attacked or sabotaged and demanded war."

This was the first one in the series of fake things that followed with appallingly similar pattern, every time there was a need to drag Americans into a war it has been replicated throughout the 20th century and beyond.

And behind all that, there is basically greed - the mother of all evils. I don't mean to say that Americans never fought for just causes, like in a WW2, but the US impact in Latin America has been disastrous.
I actually think that the Chilean coup was mostly a home product. the gringos were obviously involved but i'm pretty sure it would have happened with or without them.

allende was too much to bear for the ones with power at the time and the divisions were running high. the land and industry expropriation wasn't to the rich man's liking and they began plotting to remove allende and even to revert his policies. since in this country the richest 0.1% of the nation controls the industry, the press and a sizeable portion of the army, it wasn't too difficult for them to stage a coup
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:57 AM   #5
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
I actually think that the Chilean coup was mostly a home product. the gringos were obviously involved but i'm pretty sure it would have happened with or without them.

allende was too much to bear for the ones with power at the time and the divisions were running high. the land and industry expropriation wasn't to the rich man's liking and they began plotting to remove allende and even to revert his policies. since in this country the richest 0.1% of the nation controls the industry, the press and a sizeable portion of the army, it wasn't too difficult for them to stage a coup
Yes, but if they had the overwhelming power to depose Allende by themselves, I think they would have prevented his election in the first place.

If tomorrow the US really wanted to remove Chavez, for example, they would do the same, support his rich opponents (like it was done once before to him, just a crack in public opinion will be enough). And I think, yes, they would manage to this - again.

That's sad. The US should really take some confidence building measures and accept SA nations as equal partners, otherwise they will lose the influence int the long run. It's interesting watching what is happening in Argentina right now. Brazil emerges as a powerful nation. Chile has all it takes to be a highly developed nation in terms of economy, science and culture, it seems in Chile a critical mass of free thinking individuals from the middle class is very influential. Such people are essential for democracy, which is not the perfect system but still appears to be the best one. Poverty remains the No1 enemy of South America.

Bolivar loved the USA. Something significantly changed over the last century and now it's time to go back to the roots.

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Old 06-15-2012, 07:43 PM   #6
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

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Originally Posted by ssin View Post
After the Civil War in the States...
It started way before the Civil war. Half of Mexico was stolen in the 1840s, and the 50s were years of filibustering in Central America and planning for the takeover of Cuba. Back then, it was mostly the Southerners looking for new areas into which to expand slavery. One issue that in the US is seldom remembered is that Texan independence was jump started by the Anglo settlers refusal to enforce new Mexican laws banning slavery. The fact that the defenders of the Alamo were for keeping men in bondage, while the attackers were against it, doesn't go down well with those ideas of "Manifest Destiny" and "shiny city on a hill" that are loved so much across the Río Bravo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssin View Post
so Theo Roosevelt kicked the Spanish "tyrants" out of America
Well, it wasn't really Teddy, but his predecesor, McKinley, but I understand what you are driving at. It's always kind of funny to remember that 1898, the very year in which the US fought 'to expell tyranny form the hemisphere'... was also the year of the great race riots (read lynchings of African-Americans) in Atlanta, soon followed by others in New Orleans and NY, as well as the year in which the Supreme Court ruled the infamous Williams v. Mississippi, just 2 years after Plessy v. Fergusson (the former ruling approved black discrimination from the polls, effectively crushing the XVth ammendment; the latter sanctioned Jim Crow seggregation, waving aside the XIVth's Amm. equal protection clause... makes one wonder if the Civil War was worth the carnage!). That very same decade, some 1900 people were lynched in the US, of which about 90% were blacks (a couple of Jews thrown in just for variety), including 50 women, of which about a dozen pregnant.

Indeed, the US was standing up to tyranny...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssin View Post
Hearst : "You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war!" In 1898 when the U.S. warship Maine mysteriously exploded and sank in Havana Harbor, killing 258 U.S. Navy crewmen, the American public assumed it had been attacked or sabotaged and demanded war."
Well, in the 1980s, a final investigation by the Department of the Navy concluded that the explosion took place 'inside' the ship... so some party or other certainly furnished the pictures...

The US was so keen to liberate the Cubans, that they banned them from the peace negotiations. They kept Cuba for a couple of years (Puerto Rico to this day), and only left after forcing the Cubans to accept the Platt ammendment into their constitution, granting Washington the right to interfere whenever it deemed it fit (as well as the use of Guantanamo for an indefinite period... Gitmo was never meant for freedom!). Of course, the worst came in the Phillipines, where the Filipino rebels were freed from the Spanish... er.. only to be crushed in an often forgotten but truly vicious war (1899-1904), which saw the Marine 'liberators' turn into concentration camp butchers). (BTW, Filipino civilian war deaths are estimated anywhere between 200,000 and 1,500,000. Source: wikipedia).

But, appart from mere triffles like these, US history has been an unbroken yellow brick road towards Freedom on a City upon a hill. And don't anybody dare doubt it (we've got Predators).

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Old 06-15-2012, 08:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

As for Chile, the whole affair makes me want to throw up. I mean it quite literally, I have 2 Chilean friends in this world, both excellent and highly cultured people. They were both tortured. One managed to be freed because he was very young and his father was a Chilean diplomat (not that family relations assured clemency, far from it), the other through Norwegian efforts (never met anyone as in love with Norway as him and his wife).

The mere idea that anyone may think that macroeconomic changes in Chile can somehow even begin to excuse what Pinocho did (99% of it totally unnecessary from an 'effectiveness' viewpoint) is beyond the pale. BTW, Chile's Gini index is still among the worst in the Americans (quite a feat). And Mapuche Indian activists are still prosecuted under the Antiterrorist law, even when they try to defend their lands against the encroachment of large corporations (among them, the Spanish Endesa... seems like shit acknowledges no geographic boundaries!!).

As for the Chilean left after Pinocho, Alain Touraine once said he would "like them a bit more if they weren't so right-wing". Which about sums up a very sad story.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

Pinochet was obviously a ruthless dictator but most likely the lesser of two evils. Under communism Chile wouldn't have enjoyed half the living standard they had in the 80s.

In any case, even if Pinochet was that bad, it shouldn't stop the film from being released. If you start banning certain media then you're basically playing the same dictatorial game as Pinochet.
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Old 06-16-2012, 02:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

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Pinochet was obviously a ruthless dictator but most likely the lesser of two evils. Under communism Chile wouldn't have enjoyed half the living standard they had in the 80s.
that's a common argument of many people who believe themselves to be "moderates" but in my humble opinion it's BS. Allende was first and foremost a democrat and thus as bad as his gvt might have ended up being, free elections were still going to be held after his democratic presidential term. with that in mind, theres no reason to believe that chile would have turned commie over the years. what would have happened after allende? it's pretty much impossible to tell.

as for pinochet's economic legacy, it's vastly overrated. as a function of a free market economy, it fails because it gave too many priviledges to the already rich. truth be told, pinochet and his economic advisors were never truly libertarians in the true sense of the word. otherwise they would have objected to the monopolistic pensions' system they created or to the sell out of gvt. companies to their rich friends at the prize of peanuts.
right now many people in chile are trying to change both the economic and the political roots of the pinochet legacy. that requires not only a change in the current mindset of a still sizeable portion of the society, but also a change in the laws and in the constitution.

Quote:
In any case, even if Pinochet was that bad, it shouldn't stop the film from being released. If you start banning certain media then you're basically playing the same dictatorial game as Pinochet.
this is something i've thought about recently. on one hand, i think it is a sign of disrespect to hold a homage to a dictator responsible for the death and torture of thousands. to that extent, i can totally simpathize with the protestors. On the other hand, i do believe in free speech and perhaps acts like this one should be allowed (as it was).

i don't buy your argument, though. germany has banned all things related to Nazism for decades and it would be stupid to claim they're playing the same dictatorial game as Hitler. Not even close actually.
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Old 06-16-2012, 02:34 AM   #10
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

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Originally Posted by peribsen View Post
As for Chile, the whole affair makes me want to throw up. I mean it quite literally, I have 2 Chilean friends in this world, both excellent and highly cultured people. They were both tortured. One managed to be freed because he was very young and his father was a Chilean diplomat (not that family relations assured clemency, far from it), the other through Norwegian efforts (never met anyone as in love with Norway as him and his wife).

The mere idea that anyone may think that macroeconomic changes in Chile can somehow even begin to excuse what Pinocho did (99% of it totally unnecessary from an 'effectiveness' viewpoint) is beyond the pale. BTW, Chile's Gini index is still among the worst in the Americans (quite a feat). And Mapuche Indian activists are still prosecuted under the Antiterrorist law, even when they try to defend their lands against the encroachment of large corporations (among them, the Spanish Endesa... seems like shit acknowledges no geographic boundaries!!).

As for the Chilean left after Pinocho, Alain Touraine once said he would "like them a bit more if they weren't so right-wing". Which about sums up a very sad story.
in the first 10 years or so back to democracy the chilean left was mostly strapped by the power of the former dictatorship so it was comprehensible they played it safe. in the last 10 years or so, as the military and pinochet lost political power, those boundaries became more and more unclear, yet the so called centre-lefties were still maintaining the same policies.

as of late, people are demanding changes and it seems that neither the right nor the centre-left are willing to work in their favour. what we need is a major change in our political parties or else new parties.

fun fact: the UDI, which is the most right wing party of the nation and the one that officially supported pinochet, has been the strongest party for years now. their methods consist on heavy marketing of popular ideas such as "fighting delinquency" or "working for the poor" (when in fact they do anything but). then again, the poorest segments of society along with the richest give them their vote. needless to say, the centre left coaltion which ruled the country for 20 years is also responsible for this.
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Old 06-17-2012, 10:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

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Originally Posted by peribsen View Post
It started way before the Civil war. Half of Mexico was stolen in the 1840s, and the 50s were years of filibustering in Central America and planning for the takeover of Cuba. Back then, it was mostly the Southerners looking for new areas into which to expand slavery. One issue that in the US is seldom remembered is that Texan independence was jump started by the Anglo settlers refusal to enforce new Mexican laws banning slavery. The fact that the defenders of the Alamo were for keeping men in bondage, while the attackers were against it, doesn't go down well with those ideas of "Manifest Destiny" and "shiny city on a hill" that are loved so much across the Río Bravo.

Well, it wasn't really Teddy, but his predecesor, McKinley, but I understand what you are driving at. It's always kind of funny to remember that 1898, the very year in which the US fought 'to expell tyranny form the hemisphere'... was also the year of the great race riots (read lynchings of African-Americans) in Atlanta, soon followed by others in New Orleans and NY, as well as the year in which the Supreme Court ruled the infamous Williams v. Mississippi, just 2 years after Plessy v. Fergusson (the former ruling approved black discrimination from the polls, effectively crushing the XVth ammendment; the latter sanctioned Jim Crow seggregation, waving aside the XIVth's Amm. equal protection clause... makes one wonder if the Civil War was worth the carnage!). That very same decade, some 1900 people were lynched in the US, of which about 90% were blacks (a couple of Jews thrown in just for variety), including 50 women, of which about a dozen pregnant.

Indeed, the US was standing up to tyranny...

Well, in the 1980s, a final investigation by the Department of the Navy concluded that the explosion took place 'inside' the ship... so some party or other certainly furnished the pictures...

The US was so keen to liberate the Cubans, that they banned them from the peace negotiations. They kept Cuba for a couple of years (Puerto Rico to this day), and only left after forcing the Cubans to accept the Platt ammendment into their constitution, granting Washington the right to interfere whenever it deemed it fit (as well as the use of Guantanamo for an indefinite period... Gitmo was never meant for freedom!). Of course, the worst came in the Phillipines, where the Filipino rebels were freed from the Spanish... er.. only to be crushed in an often forgotten but truly vicious war (1899-1904), which saw the Marine 'liberators' turn into concentration camp butchers). (BTW, Filipino civilian war deaths are estimated anywhere between 200,000 and 1,500,000. Source: wikipedia).

But, appart from mere triffles like these, US history has been an unbroken yellow brick road towards Freedom on a City upon a hill. And don't anybody dare doubt it (we've got Predators).
Seems you harbor no illusions about the American dream and the Manifest Destiny. Still, the US story is inspiring at least to some extent and in some instances.

I understand what you are saying, but I think that that sorts of expansion, including Texas was typically and originally American, "let's grab some land for ourselves, our private individual interests, and stick our banner in it". It was comprised in the "Gone to Texas" slogan and the Davy Crocket words "You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas". Note the "I". The Anglo-saxon settlers prevailed and that was it, still more or less a highly individual affair. But imo, only after the civil war carnage and the industrial revolution that followed the times saw the organized effort to overthrow foreign governments or to install puppet regimes, that was a lesson learned from the war, how to collectively and in an organized manner mobilize the public for your cause, with coordinated propaganda, how to impose political will and advance economic interests. South was in fact conquered, occupied and a puppet regime was installed there, composed of northern "carpetbaggers", and southern collaborationists. Sadly, the black population, mostly poor and uneducated for obvious reasons, and now even without their masters who at least provided for basic needs, were left high and dry and they didn't manage to articulate their position and interests. Under those circumstances, they served mostly to advance northern interests... that's the point where racial hatred in the south was truly born... before that the southern whites, although surely racist did not have reasons to hate or envy blacks... When so called reconstruction was over, and southern whites inevitable regained their say, i.e when eventually the southern democrats and the northern republicans politically buried the hatchet, the blacks were the first to pay a heavy price...and even today there are some traces of it, with all the things they have had to endure.... it took 100 years (!) to again have an African American senator (or congressman, I forgot, I should check)from a southern state. It happened only in the 70s, less than 40 years ago, quite recently. The time after the Civil War until the Spanish War is very interesting, it witnessed major changes, with burning racial issues and the Jim Crow laws that followed and proclaimed "separate but equal" policies to avoid the constitution. Jim Crow is another unfortunate son of the Civil War, typical one that was waged for noble cause on the surface and for greedy reasons in the core. It was a bad war, especially traumatic for the entire US, to this day it's the war with the most American casualties, that's history and there are many interpretations of it, of course.

The thing that we must admit when we talk about the US, is there was always this will among ordinary people to improve, to go for more and demand better for themselves. It's like ok, we are far from perfect but at least we are trying to move in the right direction. There is still this sense in the US, but after years of shaping the public opinion in all possible ways, the US elite seems to have come to believe in their own BS, and that's a dead end. Remedy: Back to the Roots - in a positive sense of - pursue your own individual happiness, live and let others live, maybe they are cliches but I've always liked that kind of simple and powerful statements. Maybe this has gone off topic, I hope the mods will not delete it, it's still interesting, imo.

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Old 06-18-2012, 12:00 AM   #12
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

just so people know, this is the kind of scum who went to watch the documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrPpevgbxbk
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Old 06-18-2012, 02:21 AM   #13
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

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just so people know, this is the kind of scum who went to watch the documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrPpevgbxbk
Seems to me that IS the documentary.
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Old 06-18-2012, 05:20 AM   #14
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

Pinochet was a great leader who had to be brutal at times in order to deal with subversive, extremely violent Marxist terrorists in his country. Although he killed far less people than leftist dictatorships did, that's for sure. And anyone who doesn't give him credit for Chile not looking like much of the rest of Latin America is totally ignorant.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:18 AM   #15
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Default Re: Chile protesters rally against Pinochet film

look who came back from his ban
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