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Old 06-23-2012, 04:43 AM   #76
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by RagingLamb View Post
The problem with the "wishing death" rule isn't whether someone actually means it or not. I could tell everyone in this thread to go **** themselves. The problem with that is that it's offensive, not whether I genuinely want people in this thread to carry out my vulgar wish.

The same is true about wishing death. How often does anyone genuinely wish for another person to die when they post it on the internet? The point is that it doesn't really matter. It's just a really nasty way to express an opinion, even if it is a joke, and it's not welcome on this forum. So the real question should be, how do we want to deal with it?

In my opinion, there should still be a rule against wishing death or injury. And arguing that you "didn't mean it" should not be a defence. People are very capable of saying what they actually mean. There is no reason to wish death, even jokingly, especially when there is a clear rule against it. It takes little effort to change a post so it isn't a death wish. It's unfair to forgo this effort but then shift the burden on the mods to now try read your mind to see what you actually meant.

The only exception should be when the death wish occurs in the chat threads, where it is clear from the context that it is merely a figure of speech, and the person who is targeted is clearly not offended by it. The application should remain unchanged when someone wishes death or injury on a person or a player (or a group of persons or players) in GM.

The only other aspects of the rule that I would change would be the absence of a yellow card, and the ban length. It shouldn't just be a straight red every time. Sometimes a yellow is sufficient. And the ban length could merely be a month instead of the much more extreme 3 months.
This sounds mostly fair, except for a few things:

-Mods aren't required to read the posters' minds and find out what they mean; they are expected to gauge what ban each specific case deserves, which leads me to my other point;

-Reducing the ban from 3 months to 1 month changes nothing. The real problem here is the lack of flexibility, treating every 'death wish' as the same, which clearly isn't the case, and same for other infractions.

I guess the yellow card is a good idea, though, it is definitely an improvement.

The rule should indeed remain: death wishes should not be promoted and should be a bannable offense. That has never been the issue here, I don't think anyone condones death wishes. The inflexible/robotic application of the rule is the one and only real issue and what leads to unfair situations and subsequent complaints.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:07 AM   #77
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
This sounds mostly fair, except for a few things:

-Mods aren't required to read the posters' minds and find out what they mean; they are expected to gauge what ban each specific case deserves, which leads me to my other point;

-Reducing the ban from 3 months to 1 month changes nothing. The real problem here is the lack of flexibility, treating every 'death wish' as the same, which clearly isn't the case, and same for other infractions.

I guess the yellow card is a good idea, though, it is definitely an improvement.

The rule should indeed remain: death wishes should not be promoted and should be a bannable offense. That has never been the issue here, I don't think anyone condones death wishes. The inflexible/robotic application of the rule is the one and only real issue and what leads to unfair situations and subsequent complaints.
Yes. But unfortunately, the rigid and "robotic" application of rules is sometimes a compromise we have to make.

For example, it means that there isn't too much variation from one mod to the next in terms of how a rule is interpreted and applied. This leads to a greater degree of consistency. So posters have a better idea of what to expect.

The downside, as you mentioned, is that sometimes this can lead to unfair situations. But in my opinion, the fact that we have the feedback/questions section of the forum, and the appeal procedure for banned members, means that there is a chance for errors to be caught out and corrected when they arise.

Of course, in an ideal world, we would give every infraction a full review. But there are only so many mods, and only so much time we can spend moderating the forums. It may sound like a cop out, but there have easily been over 5000 reported posts ever since I became a mod. Sometimes we have to be "robotic" to deal with the volume.
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Old 06-24-2012, 08:03 PM   #78
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingLamb View Post
Yes. But unfortunately, the rigid and "robotic" application of rules is sometimes a compromise we have to make.

For example, it means that there isn't too much variation from one mod to the next in terms of how a rule is interpreted and applied. This leads to a greater degree of consistency. So posters have a better idea of what to expect.

The downside, as you mentioned, is that sometimes this can lead to unfair situations. But in my opinion, the fact that we have the feedback/questions section of the forum, and the appeal procedure for banned members, means that there is a chance for errors to be caught out and corrected when they arise.

Of course, in an ideal world, we would give every infraction a full review. But there are only so many mods, and only so much time we can spend moderating the forums. It may sound like a cop out, but there have easily been over 5000 reported posts ever since I became a mod. Sometimes we have to be "robotic" to deal with the volume.
Fair enough. This section and the possibility to appeal are definitely useful tools.

The reduction to 1 month and yellow card system seem like good ideas though, will they be applied to current bans or only for future cases?
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:34 PM   #79
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingLamb View Post
Yes. But unfortunately, the rigid and "robotic" application of rules is sometimes a compromise we have to make.

For example, it means that there isn't too much variation from one mod to the next in terms of how a rule is interpreted and applied. This leads to a greater degree of consistency. So posters have a better idea of what to expect.

The downside, as you mentioned, is that sometimes this can lead to unfair situations. But in my opinion, the fact that we have the feedback/questions section of the forum, and the appeal procedure for banned members, means that there is a chance for errors to be caught out and corrected when they arise.

Of course, in an ideal world, we would give every infraction a full review. But there are only so many mods, and only so much time we can spend moderating the forums. It may sound like a cop out, but there have easily been over 5000 reported posts ever since I became a mod. Sometimes we have to be "robotic" to deal with the volume.
Fully understood, and even appreciated, as your task isn't an easy one.
Still, in cases where a 'second view' is reported and asked for, the robotic approach should be abandoned. Which apparently you do.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:21 PM   #80
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Seems pretty straightforward when you read the rules and with an appeal process one can be heard. Would it be beneficial to give the rest of the forum the reasoning behind some bans when they happen if anyone is interested enough to ask?
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:09 AM   #81
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by cobalt60 View Post
Seems pretty straightforward when you read the rules and with an appeal process one can be heard. Would it be beneficial to give the rest of the forum the reasoning behind some bans when they happen if anyone is interested enough to ask?
This, exactly.
Glad to read that at least certain posters do understand the difficulty of judgement in these cases, in contrary to certain other ones who apparently don't - the ones who apparently feel free of throwing red dots at critical posters because of their ignorance. Too bad to see that some of those are indeed mods on this forum.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:28 AM   #82
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

If Lestat has a duplicate account wouldn't his ban be extended a month?
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:45 AM   #83
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quick and efficient work with that Ceasar guy. He posted that in this very thread thus we can easily interpret that as a non-malicious non-GM figure of speech. A remark very well, you know, executed.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:21 AM   #84
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I don't see how wishing death could be funny. If something frustrates you, there are a thousand other ways to express it.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:13 AM   #85
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Sorry but I don't even know why this rule needs to be reviewed at all. Wishing death is a horrible thing to do and I can't see a context where it can be used with intelligence or have comic validity. Whoever is in charge at MTF obviously doesn't want it so don't say anything in reference to it. Simple. It's not like not being able to say it detracts from your posts in any way whatsoever.

Sorry Saulo.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:15 AM   #86
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by leng jai View Post
Sorry but I don't even know why this rule needs to be reviewed at all. Wishing death is a horrible thing to do and I can't see a context where it can be used with intelligence or have comic validity. Whoever is in charge at MTF obviously doesn't want it so don't say anything in reference to it. Simple. It's not like not being able to say it detracts from your posts in any way whatsoever.

Sorry Saulo.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:21 AM   #87
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

It's not really a question of the rule per se being under review but its enforcement/application.
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Old 07-01-2012, 01:57 PM   #88
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I am old enough to have known war and bombing and to have seen my neighbours dead when they were laughing with me a couple of day before.

Wishing death is awfull because death is realy awfull and there is no way to have fun with it.

If you let a door open, plenty of people will argue for ages saying it was for fun but it is FOR THEIR OWN FUN and not for the other members' fun because it is too bad memories for some.*

So a strict rule and a strict ban is the better way to make EVERY ONE in quietness.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:33 AM   #89
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Crvena Zvezda View Post
I am old enough to have known war and bombing and to have seen my neighbours dead when they were laughing with me a couple of day before.

Wishing death is awfull because death is realy awfull and there is no way to have fun with it.

If you let a door open, plenty of people will argue for ages saying it was for fun but it is FOR THEIR OWN FUN and not for the other members' fun because it is too bad memories for some.*

So a strict rule and a strict ban is the better way to make EVERY ONE in quietness.
Of course you try to avoid talking about death, the serbians killed a lot of bosnians and its really natural death is a strong word for them. But in another pacifical countries like Brazil where death comes merely as a consequence of social problems, we arent so traumatized by it, specially when it comes to soft talking and language expressions such as: " i killed myself of working today and
" i wish i could kill this tennis player because he annoys me a lot, being this not so different from saying yopu disling specially because the whole world is not crazy and psycho like the serbians in the decade of 90 saying you dislike someone so using your argument that you are tired of wars, I really wish you hadnt killed all those bosnians being a less sensitive person now that your people ar and actually using ACTIONS, and not merely WORDS to express your love to the world.

You could stop avoiding provocations to Nadal and people to lose for Djokovic as a nice beginning to be a nicer person.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:37 AM   #90
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

And stop avoiding your imperialistic provocations such as implying everyone should be quiet just like a nice dictator, blaming for it a supposed " fake peace for this forum"
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