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Old 06-21-2012, 11:10 AM   #61
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

On the contrary, non-rigid application of the rules leads to unfairness.
If you apply the rule to the letter (Do not wish death, not even as a joke), everybody should be treated the same way, regardless of the intention and motivation (trolling, joking, frustration,...).
Tough if it's written to a friend who understands it as a joke. Tough if you didn't actually mean it that way.

It's not difficult to communicate without wishing death.

Once you start reducing some bans based on explanations given (for example: poster A was merely having some fun and it was obvious): it's then that the unfairness starts. Because explanations for when the rule needs to be applied and what can be seen as a joke and what not, is highly subjective.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:30 PM   #62
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Was it fair to ban leng jai for 3 months for his stupid double account?
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Old 06-21-2012, 03:46 PM   #63
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Are we as a human race so fucked up that we cannot even control our fingers on a keyboard? Are we so fucked up that we wish a player injury or death simply because we lost a bet or they beat our fave?

Have some fucking self-control, people, and DON'T WISH DEATH OR INJURY ON PEOPLE. Good God, people, is it really that difficult?

And keep the ban rule. Wishing injury or death on someone is fucking dispicable and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:24 PM   #64
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Can I wish death on myself?

Or would I get banned?
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:37 PM   #65
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
On the contrary, non-rigid application of the rules leads to unfairness.
If you apply the rule to the letter (Do not wish death, not even as a joke), everybody should be treated the same way, regardless of the intention and motivation (trolling, joking, frustration,...)
.
Tough if it's written to a friend who understands it as a joke. Tough if you didn't actually mean it that way.

It's not difficult to communicate without wishing death.

Once you start reducing some bans based on explanations given (for example: poster A was merely having some fun and it was obvious): it's then that the unfairness starts. Because explanations for when the rule needs to be applied and what can be seen as a joke and what not, is highly subjective.
No, it doesn't. Rules/laws were never meant to be applied rigidly. Doing so ALWAYS results in unfairness.

What you're telling me is that different cases should be treated in same way, which is obviously absurd.

Is it harder to analyse each case than just applying pre-determined bans in robotic fashion?

It definitely is, but that's why we have moderators and not an automatic system to detect certain words/expressions and ban users. If they are not here to moderate, mods are pretty redundant. They are not doing anything that my 10 year old brother isn't capable of.

As long as the moderators refuse to apply the rules with intelligence and flexibility, the system will always be unfair, even if the rules are perfect.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:41 PM   #66
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
Was it fair to ban leng jai for 3 months for his stupid double account?
No, it wasn't. And it was an application of common sense for sure, but I really can't give the mods much credit, because acting with common sense should be the norm and not the exception. The fact that he was banned for 3 months for a rather harmless double account shows some stunning lack of common sense.

If bans are to be applied rigidly with no concern for particular cases, we might as well scrap mods and find an automatic system to do the job, that's surely possible in this day and age.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:02 PM   #67
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
Was it fair to ban leng jai for 3 months for his stupid double account?
Well, the key word in your sentence is "stupid'

Everybody on MTF knows that double accounts aren't allowed and the rules state that a 1st infraction leads to a 3 month ban. So, if you start a double account for whatever reason, that's the risk you take knowingly.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime, as they say (although "crime" is a bit heavy as a word to use here).
You may argue that the rule was made for trolls and leng jai was only having fun among friends but by allowing one ban to be reduced, you've opened up a can of worms IMO. Besides, what's "just fun" for one person is annoying to the next person.
The references to "common sense" and "fair" is all subjective talk given the fact that I've seen enough posters sit out a 3 month ban for a double account only used in a chat thread among friends. Talk of fairness is utter nonsense if you consider what has happened on MTF for long enough (as you can see, I've been here since 2005). By allowing one ban to be reduced for a popular poster, moderators have opened themselves up to criticism.

So, I would have let him sit out 3 months.


A good thing I'm not a moderator, right?

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Old 06-22-2012, 02:35 AM   #68
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Well, the key word in your sentence is "stupid'

Everybody on MTF knows that double accounts aren't allowed and the rules state that a 1st infraction leads to a 3 month ban. So, if you start a double account for whatever reason, that's the risk you take knowingly.
Actually, at the time this happened I went to read the rules (for the first time ) and it wasn't clear at all that a first DA offence would automatically lead to a 3-month ban. There was some crap about moderators' discretion which seemed to suggest that the moderators would look at the circumstances of the case first before handing out the ban. I asked about this in the thread on leng's ban and apparently it was so worded to prevent cases where a user registered years ago, forgot about his account, and registers again, therefore creating a "double account". Was this made clear in the rules? No, it wasn't. I haven't gone back to check it since but hopefully the wording has been changed.

At the time the DA was found out a couple of people close to him thought that it would be quite clear that the DA was just a joke account and he'd maybe get an infraction without a ban, or maybe a few weeks' ban. When he was banned for 3 months the utter lack of common sense in the decision was just rather shocking, to put it rather dramatically.

Quote:
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime, as they say (although "crime" is a bit heavy as a word to use here).
You may argue that the rule was made for trolls and leng jai was only having fun among friends but by allowing one ban to be reduced, you've opened up a can of worms IMO. Besides, what's "just fun" for one person is annoying to the next person.
The references to "common sense" and "fair" is all subjective talk given the fact that I've seen enough posters sit out a 3 month ban for a double account only used in a chat thread among friends. Talk of fairness is utter nonsense if you consider what has happened on MTF for long enough (as you can see, I've been here since 2005). By allowing one ban to be reduced for a popular poster, moderators have opened themselves up to criticism.
There's nothing that the mods can do about the cases that have already happened (except repent for their mistakes ) but contrary to opening up a can of worms, I think they've set a good precedent. From what you said it sounds like the unfairness was being perpetuated which obviously wasn't a good situation. Thankfully in leng's case, enough people spoke up on his behalf to reverse it. It would have been unfair to him to let the 3-month ban stay for his stupid (stupid!) DA, and if a similar situation arises in the future with another poster who also creates a stupid DA to joke amongst his friends, it would be unfair to that poster if he got a blanket 3 month ban.

This applies to the wishing death punishment as well.


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A good thing I'm not a moderator, right?
Can't disagree with this.
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Old 06-22-2012, 02:38 AM   #69
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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No, it wasn't. And it was an application of common sense for sure, but I really can't give the mods much credit, because acting with common sense should be the norm and not the exception. The fact that he was banned for 3 months for a rather harmless double account shows some stunning lack of common sense.
I haven't been here long enough to have experienced the stunning lack of common sense amongst the mods that I've heard about but apparently that's how MTF moderation operated. They could've easily chosen not to give a damn and let the 3 month ban stay though, and hopefully that case has set a precedent for future ones.
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Old 06-22-2012, 03:38 AM   #70
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Well, the key word in your sentence is "stupid'

Everybody on MTF knows that double accounts aren't allowed and the rules state that a 1st infraction leads to a 3 month ban. So, if you start a double account for whatever reason, that's the risk you take knowingly.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime, as they say (although "crime" is a bit heavy as a word to use here).
You may argue that the rule was made for trolls and leng jai was only having fun among friends but by allowing one ban to be reduced, you've opened up a can of worms IMO. Besides, what's "just fun" for one person is annoying to the next person.
The references to "common sense" and "fair" is all subjective talk given the fact that I've seen enough posters sit out a 3 month ban for a double account only used in a chat thread among friends. Talk of fairness is utter nonsense if you consider what has happened on MTF for long enough (as you can see, I've been here since 2005). By allowing one ban to be reduced for a popular poster, moderators have opened themselves up to criticism.

So, I would have let him sit out 3 months.


A good thing I'm not a moderator, right?
What are you on about? The fact that silly decisions were taken for years doesn't mean good decisions shouldn't be taken in the future. The mods shouldn't be criticized for reducing Leng Jai's ban, but for acting as a redundant entity for so much time before that. Banning double accounts without scrutinizing the circumstances is something that even my 10 year old brother can do, moderators are not needed for that.

Common sense and fair are indeed difficult concepts to gauge. But that's what moderators are for, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
I haven't been here long enough to have experienced the stunning lack of common sense amongst the mods that I've heard about but apparently that's how MTF moderation operated. They could've easily chosen not to give a damn and let the 3 month ban stay though, and hopefully that case has set a precedent for future ones.
You don't need to be around at all. Even if I had never visited the forum before, a quick glance at the banned user list will show for instance that every user banned for wishing death has the exact same ban length. I don't need to know or see anything else to realize that there's no moderation going on at all.

Hopefully Leng Jai's case does mark the beginning of actual moderation of the forum. I won't hold my breath though: applying rules in robotic fashion remains the easiest and laziest course of action and it's human nature, especially for those in a position of power, to choose the easy route.

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Old 06-22-2012, 06:36 AM   #71
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Certinfy was recently banned for 3 months for saying something like "People who still think Ferrer is better than Tsonga and Berdych should just kill themselves.".

This was obviously an exaggeration to convey a point, not a serious death wish. ...
wow, really? had no idea. This is the first thing that comes to his mind???
Not "People who still think Ferrer is better than Tsonga and Berdych should ...."
1) lay off the vodka
2) stop drinking from lead crystal glasses
3) go to night school and finally get that high school diploma
4) get a PET scan to make sure their brains are working
5) stay away from cheap drugs
6) call a tow truck to help pull their heads out of their asses
7) stop watching tennis
8) switch to WTA
9) move to Spain so they can nut-hug David full time
10) put down the bong

I don't even get how what he said is supposed to be an insult. It's not that hard to come up with something that tells people "your opinion is extremely stupid" without breaking the forum rules.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:52 PM   #72
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
What are you on about? The fact that silly decisions were taken for years doesn't mean good decisions shouldn't be taken in the future. The mods shouldn't be criticized for reducing Leng Jai's ban, but for acting as a redundant entity for so much time before that. Banning double accounts without scrutinizing the circumstances is something that even my 10 year old brother can do, moderators are not needed for that.

Common sense and fair are indeed difficult concepts to gauge. But that's what moderators are for, isn't it?
Exactly.
Any reasonable lawyer - or anyone with just a minor training in law - knows - or rather should know - that rules are to be followed, but taking into account all circumstances of the event, and most of all, common sense.
Exceptions to the rule should remain an exception, but when justice calls for it - there should be an exception made, like was the case with Leng Jai.
Mods have done well in this particular case.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:11 AM   #73
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

The problem with the "wishing death" rule isn't whether someone actually means it or not. I could tell everyone in this thread to go **** themselves. The problem with that is that it's offensive, not whether I genuinely want people in this thread to carry out my vulgar wish.

The same is true about wishing death. How often does anyone genuinely wish for another person to die when they post it on the internet? The point is that it doesn't really matter. It's just a really nasty way to express an opinion, even if it is a joke, and it's not welcome on this forum. So the real question should be, how do we want to deal with it?

In my opinion, there should still be a rule against wishing death or injury. And arguing that you "didn't mean it" should not be a defence. People are very capable of saying what they actually mean. There is no reason to wish death, even jokingly, especially when there is a clear rule against it. It takes little effort to change a post so it isn't a death wish. It's unfair to forgo this effort but then shift the burden on the mods to now try read your mind to see what you actually meant.

The only exception should be when the death wish occurs in the chat threads, where it is clear from the context that it is merely a figure of speech, and the person who is targeted is clearly not offended by it. The application should remain unchanged when someone wishes death or injury on a person or a player (or a group of persons or players) in GM.

The only other aspects of the rule that I would change would be the absence of a yellow card, and the ban length. It shouldn't just be a straight red every time. Sometimes a yellow is sufficient. And the ban length could merely be a month instead of the much more extreme 3 months.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:42 AM   #74
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

The problem with this forum isn't 'offensive' posting, it's the signal-to-noise ratio. To find any decent analysis posters have to wade through a hundred posts worth of Hian's repetitive and memory-sucking gifs, Topspindoctor calling everyone who isn't Nadal a mug, and a hundred other tards who contribute nothing except one-liners either mindlessly cheering for or slagging off a player.

A good moderator is 90% community leader and 10% cop. Seems to me that most mods here are only interested in the 'cop' part.
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:55 AM   #75
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mae View Post
I don't see how "wishing death" or "wishing injury" can be a joke! Naturally the person is going to say it was a joke when they are caught because they know they are going to get banned. I say leave the rule exactly as it is since you are not wisely going to get rid of it altogether. Because in making any changes what you are actually going to be doing is making it harder to know if the rule should be applied or not. It is very simple not to get banned for this reason just don't post about that subject at all!
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Originally Posted by Lee View Post
My opinion is any wishing death or inury to a player or someone else should be an automatic ban.
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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Personally, I think that the rule is very simple. Do not wish death, even as a joke. Don't hide behind others if you are stupid enough to break it.
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Originally Posted by Aenea View Post
I agree with that.
How wishing death could be even considered a joke is beyond me.
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Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
exactly
there is a million ways to joke


i wouldnt like anyone wish bad things on me for example
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaitare View Post
exactly
this is one of a million ways to joke, a legit one

I think the idea mentioned above that only a "wished death upon" poster should be allowed to report such a post is a very wise one (other postere can of course send PMs to make the said poster aware of such a fact) but the ultimate decision to report belongs to the "offended" party. That would allow friends to indulge in death wishing if they find it funny. The "offending" party of course takes the big risk and has to be certain that they know "offended" poster well enough and some MTF freindships may break due to a misplaced death wish, but I'd still allow posters to take that risks if they really want to.

What should be done with wishing death on players? They can't report posts (except Djokovic, of course. Novak . I hope... all is well).
Agree with these.
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