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Old 06-20-2012, 08:45 PM   #46
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Really, you think he was wishing you (and other people with the same view) to die? Should he have worded his post differently? Most definitely. Was he seriously wishing death upon those people? I'm not even going to answer that.




You do have a point. I disagree, but I concede that his post was worded poorly and a ban was maybe in order. But 3 months, really? It'd be understandable if he had said player x or player y should die, but that was not the case, it was a vague wish at best.

Following the rule literally, the 3 month ban is correct. But the rule is obviously flawed, as is every rule that allows for no flexibility - the rule assumes that every death wish is the same regardless of circumstances, tone..., which is obviously wrong.

But then again, rules are useless if they are not interpreted with common sense. Anyone who ever studied law knows that applying rules literally/blindly is more arbitrary and generates more injustice than even the non-existence of rules. MTF is sadly a proof of that with good posters like Certinfy and until very recently Leng Jai, among others, banned while some of the worst trolls you find (not naming anyone, but you can who I'm talking about) are still 'free' and posting.

Here's a question, though. Knowing Jason (from his time here) and the circumstances in which his comment was written, which one of these two do you think he meant: (a) I want people who think Ferrer is better than Berdych and Tsonga dead or (b) it is beyond ridiculous that people still think Ferrer is better than Berdych and Tsonga, those people have no clue at all (albeit with poor wording).
I don't think the purpose of this thread is to discuss specific case so this is the last one I will talk about this case.

It is very clear cut here. Jason knows the rule and understands it. He broke it and now paying the price. Very simple and clear cut to me. And I don't think the mods are blindly applying the rule here. When the rule was set up, it is very clear that most of the wishing death/injury posts, the posters were not really meant it. But this is a very nasty habbit and the board and most members did not want to cultivate this kind of habbit so the rule was in place.

Mods have found to be flexible and apllying common sense in applying rules here. Like leng jai's case of doubles account. The reason behind the double accounts rule is to prevent posters avoiding ban and/or trolling. leng jai's double account was not for these purposes so he received a lesser punishment but since he knows about the double accounts rule, he did not avoid punishment which I think is fair and mods are doing their jobs.
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:14 PM   #47
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Lee View Post
I don't think the purpose of this thread is to discuss specific case so this is the last one I will talk about this case.

It is very clear cut here. Jason knows the rule and understands it. He broke it and now paying the price. Very simple and clear cut to me. And I don't think the mods are blindly applying the rule here. When the rule was set up, it is very clear that most of the wishing death/injury posts, the posters were not really meant it. But this is a very nasty habbit and the board and most members did not want to cultivate this kind of habbit so the rule was in place.

Mods have found to be flexible and apllying common sense in applying rules here. Like leng jai's case of doubles account. The reason behind the double accounts rule is to prevent posters avoiding ban and/or trolling. leng jai's double account was not for these purposes so he received a lesser punishment but since he knows about the double accounts rule, he did not avoid punishment which I think is fair and mods are doing their jobs.
This is all well and good but fails to address my main point of contention, namely the lack of flexibility of the rule. And yes, the rule is being applied blindly, this is not even up for discussion, just check the banned users thread: every user banned for wishing death has the exact same ban length, which assumes that all cases are equal.

And yes, this thread is not to discuss Jason's specific case; I mentioned it because it's the only one where I know exactly what happened. But looking at the number of users currently banned because of this particular offense, it's easy to see that this rule has become a parody of itself. Oh and that the objective - which, according to you was not to cultivate this habit - is not being met at all. Nor will it be any time soon. The objective of rules is to avoid/reduce transgressions, which this rule clearly doesn't. Unless the objective is to ban as many people as possible, the rule is a total failure.

And Leng Jai saw his ban reduced because he's been here for a long time and is a very well liked member. It has little to do with flexibility and common sense from the mods; if he was not such a well liked member, there's no way his situation would have been reviewed. His situation only further exposed what we already knew: that blindingly following rules is as unfair as it comes.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:07 PM   #48
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post

And Leng Jai saw his ban reduced because he's been here for a long time and is a very well liked member. It has little to do with flexibility and common sense from the mods; if he was not such a well liked member, there's no way his situation would have been reviewed. His situation only further exposed what we already knew: that blindingly following rules is as unfair as it comes.
This is going to sound a bit aggressive and unwelcoming, and that's really not the way I mean it. But you have been here for three months, don't you think you might be talking about what you don't know? One thing is to spot the biggest tards in GM, another is to have deep knowledge about who likes who, and who influences who? Some people here have known each other for years, you have been a poster for 3 months, how come you feel so comfortable making statements like these?
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:27 PM   #49
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by arm View Post
This is going to sound a bit aggressive and unwelcoming, and that's really not the way I mean it. But you have been here for three months, don't you think you might be talking about what you don't know? One thing is to spot the biggest tards in GM, another is to have deep knowledge about who likes who, and who influences who? Some people here have known each other for years, you have been a poster for 3 months, how come you feel so comfortable making statements like these?
It doesn't sound aggressive and unwelcoming at all, it is actually a fair question to ask

I read the thread about Leng Jai's ban, and he definitely seems to be one of the most popular and well liked members of this forum, at least judging by the number of people who were (rightly) against his ban/the length of his ban. I don't think I'm wrong on this one, nor that the amount of people asking the mods to review the situation had a significant impact on the reduction of his ban. But then again, I might be - as you said, I've not been here for very long. I do believe, though, that if it had been a less popular/well liked member committing the same offense, the ban would probably have gone unnoticed for most other members and the right decision wouldn't have been taken (reducing the ban was obviously the right decision).

But you are right that I might be wrongly assuming things and I'm sorry if that's the case. In fact, I hope I am way off the mark here. It'd be great news if the reduction of the ban was merely a result of common sense and critical thought on the moderator's part and even better if that was a trend to continue.

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:34 PM   #50
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
It doesn't sound aggressive and unwelcoming at all, it is actually a fair question to ask

I read the thread about Leng Jai's ban, and he definitely seems to be one of the most popular and well liked members of this forum, at least judging by the number of people who were (rightly) against his ban/the length of his ban. I don't think I'm wrong on this one, nor that the amount of people asking the mods to review the situation had a significant impact on the reduction of his ban. If it had been a less popular/well liked member committing the same offense, the ban would probably have gone unnoticed for most other members and the right decision wouldn't have been taken (reducing the ban was obviously the right decision).

But you are right that I might be assuming things and I'm sorry if that's the case. In fact, I hope I am way off the mark here. It'd be great news if the reduction of the ban was merely a result of common sense and critical thought on the moderator's part and even better if that was a trend to continue.
Most double accounts created on this board have the sole purpose of trolling GM and/or stalking/harassing a certain poster. The DA in this situation was created for "fun" and the posts were mainly on NT.

Maybe that helps your judgement. I am just saying, I have been around for over 4 years now, and sometimes I still feel like a newbie... You have plenty to learn about this forum and its posters. I was just surprised to see you were feeling so comfortable and knowledgeable speaking about these issues that obviously require having been around for some time to actually know about them.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:44 PM   #51
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by arm View Post
Most double accounts created on this board have the sole purpose of trolling GM and/or stalking/harassing a certain poster. The DA in this situation was created for "fun" and the posts were mainly on NT.

Maybe that helps your judgement. I am just saying, I have been around for over 4 years now, and sometimes I still feel like a newbie... You have plenty to learn about this forum and its posters. I was just surprised to see you were feeling so comfortable and knowledgeable speaking about these issues that obviously require having been around for some time to actually know about them.
Sure, most double accounts are created to troll/bring the forum into disrupt - this is not exclusive to MTF, but to most forums. Leng Jai's wasn't created for that purpose. Therefore, he doesn't deserve the same ban as those who do create double accounts for trolling purposes. It's not exactly rocket science, is it? There's nothing more unfair than giving equal treatment to different situations. It is a very bad sign that it took so long for such conclusion to be taken in Leng Jai's case and that it hasn't sunk in yet as far as other infractions (namely wishing death) are concerned.

You are right about the rest. I might be talking with too much certainty about a few things and I concede that I might be off the mark and taking conclusions without knowing all the facts. But something tells me I'm not too far off the mark
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:07 PM   #52
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

But it isn't what he meant it is about exactly what he posted. I didn't see his post so I'm taking your word for what was posted. If he would have posted "it is beyond ridiculous that people still think Ferrer is better than Berdych and Tsonga" he would have been fine. But Jason is a hugh Berdych fan and doesn't like Ferrer so even without being there I would say he got mad and from his anger came the death wish. You are a very new poster here, but Jason isn't. He knew the Rule and he broke the Rule and he got banned. I also like Leng Jai, but there again he is a long time poster here and he knew what he did was wrong. I personally think he did it just to get some mileage out of being a rule breaker. He has a thread now about the subject so he wasn't really upset about his ban at all. It was exactly what he wanted to have happen and it did. And now he is actually proud of what he did or he wouldn't have that thread.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:14 PM   #53
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

First, I have to apologise for keeping this thread off topic by responding again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Sure, most double accounts are created to troll/bring the forum into disrupt - this is not exclusive to MTF, but to most forums. Leng Jai's wasn't created for that purpose. Therefore, he doesn't deserve the same ban as those who do create double accounts for trolling purposes. It's not exactly rocket science, is it? There's nothing more unfair than giving equal treatment to different situations. It is a very bad sign that it took so long for such conclusion to be taken in Leng Jai's case and that it hasn't sunk in yet as far as other infractions (namely wishing death) are concerned.

You are right about the rest. I might be talking with too much certainty about a few things and I concede that I might be off the mark and taking conclusions without knowing all the facts. But something tells me I'm not too far off the mark

I have to say you are seeing things you want to see instead of what is actually happening.

It took time for the mods to adjust the ban because it took time for mods to discuss the issue and coming to an agreeable conclusion. Mods are not full time employees of this board and they are from different countries. You don't expect them to be able to come together at the same time and finalized everything in a day. They need to discuss about the consequence of their actions when making a deviation from the rule because of the circumstance. So the time it took was not a bad sign but a good sign because that shows mods took time to think things over before making a decision.

The number of posters pleading the leng jai's case is more because it's reasonable and sensible to reduce his ban instead of him being well like.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:50 PM   #54
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Somehow I don't think this is what scoobs wanted when he started this thread. It like a lot of things at MTF got out of hand pretty quickly!
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:22 AM   #55
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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First, I have to apologise for keeping this thread off topic by responding again.




I have to say you are seeing things you want to see instead of what is actually happening.

It took time for the mods to adjust the ban because it took time for mods to discuss the issue and coming to an agreeable conclusion. Mods are not full time employees of this board and they are from different countries. You don't expect them to be able to come together at the same time and finalized everything in a day. They need to discuss about the consequence of their actions when making a deviation from the rule because of the circumstance. So the time it took was not a bad sign but a good sign because that shows mods took time to think things over before making a decision.

The number of posters pleading the leng jai's case is more because it's reasonable and sensible to reduce his ban instead of him being well like.
I really hope you are right, and more importantly that the somewhat sensible process you describe is followed in future situations and other infractions.

That said, in what world is reducing Leng Jai's ban a deviation from the rule? Rules do not exist to be followed blindly, the correct use of rules always needs to take into account specific situations. All banned users for wishing death getting the exact same ban, now that's a perverse application of the rules, one that shows no ability/intent to discern the circumstances of each particular case. It makes a mockery of the rule if anything.

Blindly applying rules/laws has never generated justice and it never will, not on Internet forums and not in the real world. In fact it doesn't get any more unfair than treating different cases equally.

Reducing Leng Jai's ban was no deviation from the rule, it was a simple application of common sense, every rule and infraction should be analysed with common sense. If that's an exception, it's not good at all.


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Somehow I don't think this is what scoobs wanted when he started this thread. It like a lot of things at MTF got out of hand pretty quickly!
It's because the problem isn't with the Wishing Death infraction, at least not anymore than with any other specific rule of the forum. Conceptually, there's nothing wrong with banning people who wish death on others - it's actually pretty logical. The problem is the robotic application of this and other rules; when there's no flexibility and consideration towards the specific circumstances of each, the rules become useless and frankly a mere parody of themselves.

Even the most perfect and fair rules in the world will be a failure if they're not applied in thoughtful fashion.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:52 AM   #56
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I think I'll bow out of this thread now and let scoobs do what he wants to do with the Rule and also what he wants to do with this thread! Oh and Mark I think I can understand now why you were having trouble with those little red and green dots Just joking
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:09 AM   #57
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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I think I'll bow out of this thread now and let scoobs do what he wants to do with the Rule and also what he wants to do with this thread! Oh and Mark I think I can understand now why you were having trouble with those little red and green dots Just joking
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:55 AM   #58
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders
But looking at the number of users currently banned because of this particular offense, it's easy to see that this rule has become a parody of itself.
I'd say that it's more a case of there being too many posters who seem to be unable to follow a very simple rule:
do not wish death, not even as a joke.
Being too upset and too mad to think straight shouldn't be an excuse. It's not exactly rocket science. You don't have to be a member of MENSA to understand it. You don't need the life experience of a 70-year old to grasp it.


I don't believe that many people who do write a death wish actually mean for that person to die (and if some do, they need therapy IMO).
As I see it, it's just an overly aggressive way of communicating. Get creative, for heaven's sake.

Saying things like "posters who don't agree that player X is superior to player Y, should just kill themselves" is overly aggressive. Of all the methods to disagree with somebody and to get your point across, you're saying "kill yourself"?


However, I do agree with you that perhaps the mods were right in reducing leng jai's ban for creating a double account (although I think that again; the rule is clear: do not create a double account) while others, less popular MTF posters, had to sit out the full ban. That's not quite correct.

--
I'm still not quite sure what scoobs is looking for here.
I'm guessing it's a case of looking for a way to give everybody - and not just the popular ones - a better way to appeal? Leng jai had enough people on MTF to do his fighting for him but others who are not so popular or who are simply less known on MTF, don't.

I'd say that it shouldn't be up to others to make the appeal because it's then when it threatens to become a popularity contest.
It should be up to the person who receives the ban to make his/her case, for example by writing out a clear procedure for the appeal (set up an email account and make sure that people who are banned can still look up that email address when they're banned from the forum).

If they've allowed it for leng jai, they have to give everybody a way to appeal to get a punishment reduced.
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:17 AM   #59
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

But such an e-mail account has been there for a long time. I haven't used it but isn't it active?

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Old 06-21-2012, 09:52 AM   #60
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
And Leng Jai saw his ban reduced because he's been here for a long time and is a very well liked member. It has little to do with flexibility and common sense from the mods; if he was not such a well liked member, there's no way his situation would have been reviewed. His situation only further exposed what we already knew: that blindingly following rules is as unfair as it comes.
The fact that people like him had something to do with his ban reduced but the fact that it was reduced at all is an application of common sense. Give the mods some credit where it's due.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mae View Post
I personally think he did it just to get some mileage out of being a rule breaker. He has a thread now about the subject so he wasn't really upset about his ban at all. It was exactly what he wanted to have happen and it did. And now he is actually proud of what he did or he wouldn't have that thread.
That thread is a joke.

Topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
I've discussed it with the other mods and I wanted to get some sensible opinions on this rule and how it should work.

At the moment there is no wiggle room in it - you make a post that can be read as wishing death on someone (also the wishing injury rule similarly) and it's an automatic ban if the mods become aware of it.

This leads to a lot of complaints on the basis that "it was a joke, I didn't mean it seriously" etc.

We're not getting rid of the rule totally - we don't want this to be a forum where venomous posts telling people to die or get injured are acceptable.

But we do maybe want to consider adding a legitimate "it was an expression" / "it was a joke" defence which might be left alone or might just be deleted/edited depending on circumstances.

The post would have to make it explicit that it was not meant seriously, though.

I was looking for some opinions about all this.

Thanks
I think Mark Lenders pretty much nailed the issue. Rigid application of rules in all circumstances merely on prima facie evidence will almost always lead to unfairness. The rule isn't inherently unfair and it should definitely stay, but the ban shouldn't be "automatic", much less so if it's an alleged repeat offence which would lead to a permanent ban if I'm not mistaken. It's pretty simple: let the offender explain his situation if he so desires and if there's any merit in his case, exercise some discretion in meting out the appropriate punishment that fits the offence. Of course, the tricky part is deciding whether the offender's defence is legitimate but this is unfortunately where the mods have to do their jobs and decide whether a death-wishing post was a joke or not.
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