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Old 06-20-2012, 02:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Bans aren't dependent on one moderator.

A ban might be issued quickly BY one moderator if the case seems clear cut but it will be discussed and may be overturned if the overall view is that a ban is not appropriate. Usually though a case is clear cut and the ban gets issued and the discussion consists of us looking at the evidence and going "yep" because it's that obvious.


In other circumstances a ban may not be issued quickly and will only come after a view has been reached.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:58 PM   #32
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Considering how much fuss arises when a poster is banned for wishing death when "it was only a joke" I'm surprised there have been less posts in favour of a change.

I'm getting the sense that in some cases people agree with the rule "in general" but when it then has a specific application to a poster they know, then it becomes unfair. I'm not sure what to do with that sort of scenario, if that is the case.
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:25 PM   #33
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

scoobs the Rule isn't Broken so please don't Fix It. This just seems to be a matter as you said on who is involved and that shouldn't matter. If you break the rule whoever you are you get banned, so just don't break the rule! It seems so simple to me
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:38 PM   #34
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Bans aren't dependent on one moderator.
That makes it even more weird why one poster gets a ban for "wishing injury" when he painted a scenario for a player that meant wishing a cruel death while another poster gets a "wishing death" ban (longer ban) for making a joke among friends.

How can it be that seemingly arbitrary? It certainly comes across as such at times.

I seriously don't get that decisions like that are made if it really doesn't depend on one moderator. You'd understand personal preferences and bias coming into play if it's one moderator making the decision with others only intervening when there's a fuss about it on MTF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mae
The Moderators should be allowed to do their jobs.
It's not an easy task but a bit more openness about certain decisions would be appreciated.

The rule isn't broken. I agree with that. It just needs consistency (which isn't easy, I'll admit).
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:08 PM   #35
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I don't want to get bogged down in specific cases that are in the past, I'm more interested in giving people a chance to talk about how this, and possibly other rules, should operate in the future.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
I don't want to get bogged down in specific cases that are in the past
Figures.

It's not a matter of specific cases, what's done is done. But I do think that the two examples show one of the key problems. Inconsistency.

No offence, but why ask about the future (how the rule should be applied and if new rules are needed) if you're not willing to acknowledge inconsistencies in the past in a clear manner.

The rule is fine. It's a clear and simple rule. It just needs to be used as objective as possible.
What do you want to read anyway? I have the impression that you're fishing for a specific reply (obviously, I could be mistaken).

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Old 06-20-2012, 05:22 PM   #37
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I'm not fishing for a specific reply. I'm trying to get at

a) should the rule be changed?

and

b) how so, if yes.

Trouble is, people aren't really suggesting any consistent standards that could be applied and that means it could only lead to more accusations of inconsistency / bias / favouritism. One reason the rule is so clear cut is to try and avoid inconsistency (although the case you cite, which I don't remember, shows it doesn't always work like that).

It's just frustrating. We're repeatedly told we sit on high and make decisions without consulting or apparently even thinking. Here is an opportunity for people to really have some input and apart from the clear-cut "no change please" camp, the response is a bit underwhelming.
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:35 PM   #38
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

You know where I stand on the Rule scoobs so I won't go there again. But may be part of the response problem is where the thread is located? And no I don't know where you could relocate it, but I do know there are a lot of posters that just don't even come into this section of the Forum.
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:11 PM   #39
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I'm not for a change. Or, at least, not for a complete change like eliminating it or something.

As i said, when the "joke" is made during a banter between two posters, it should become bannable only when the "offended" part reports it. If he feels offended then fair enough, even if it's clearly a joke....

When the "joke" is made in a general chat, as it was in Saulo's case, the mods should really take in consideration the poster's past. I'm sorry to bring always saulo's case but for the 1st time the flaws of the system were obvious to me.

If my first proposition had been in rule, he wouldn't have been banned the 1st time and seen as a "serial offender" the second time by someone who knows nothing about him( be it the person who reported him or the person who permabanned him)
If my second proposition had been in rule, no serious mod would have banned him, I mean, what he did was not even "a joke" it was just bad, stupid phrasing
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:42 PM   #40
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

But banner is friendly joking so I don't see how wishing death/injury would even come up? And if it was friendly joking, why would there be an "offended" poster to report it? Some people on MTF must have a very different idea on 1) what is "friendly joking" and 2) what are good topics to make jokes about than I do. And this all seems to be about Saulo's case which I know nothing about, but if that is the only case anyone can come up with I personally think the Moderators are doing a very good job when it comes to this Rule.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mae View Post
You know where I stand on the Rule scoobs so I won't go there again. But may be part of the response problem is where the thread is located? And no I don't know where you could relocate it, but I do know there are a lot of posters that just don't even come into this section of the Forum.
They know because those complaining about the ban came to this forum (though not this subforum) to complain. But that is the general behaviour of most complainers. They only whine and complain when things affected them bit never take a more proactive part.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Certinfy was recently banned for 3 months for saying something like "People who still think Ferrer is better than Tsonga and Berdych should just kill themselves.".

This was obviously an exaggeration to convey a point, not a serious death wish. Not to mention no specific poster/player was targeted. Even if we decide to ignore common sense and assume he was really wishing death, it'd have been a very vague wish (no specific posters targeted), surely not warranting the same ban length as posters saying they wish player x or poster y would die.

If I had written in the Nadal vs Monaco thread in their RG match "Anyone thinking Monaco will win this should just kill themselves?", am I wishing death on people thinking Monaco will win? No, I'm merely emphasizing how unlikely such event is and how people predicting it have no clue what they're talking about. Same as how Certinfy was using exaggeration to emphasize how ridiculous (in his opinion) it is to say Ferrer is better than Tsonga or Berdych. If I say to a fellow poster: "I wish you get run over by a car and die.", am I wishing death on him? Most certainly yes. Even if MTF condemns every post that might potentially be constructed as a death wish, the fact that everyone gets the same ban (3 months) is pretty baffling.

Rules are rules, but they lose all meaning if they are not applied with common sense and become a parody of themselves. In civil law, that's what judges are for. In Internet forums, that's what moderators are for; if there's no concern to analyse the situation at hand and just blindly apply the rules, then we might as well scrap moderators and use some automatic system to ban posters who use certain words/expressions. Blind application of rules = appalling moderation. No two ways about it; any system that doesn't take into account circumstances and, yes, also a poster's overall history, is a very flawed system. You don't a need a law degree here, just some common sense.

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Old 06-20-2012, 08:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I like Certinfy very much and was shocked to see he was banned. However, he has posted here for years and knows all about the Rule of Wishing Death. He wished that the people who still think Ferrer is better than Tsonga and Berdych should just kill themselves. That is wishing death just because he didn't name a particular person it is still a death wish. As a matter of fact it was a death wish against me because I am one of those people.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:52 PM   #44
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

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Originally Posted by Mark Lenders View Post
Certinfy was recently banned for 3 months for saying something like "People who still think Ferrer is better than Tsonga and Berdych should just kill themselves.".

This was obviously an exaggeration to convey a point, not a serious death wish. Not to mention no specific poster/player was targeted. Even if we decide to ignore common sense and assume he was really wishing death, it'd have been a very vague wish (no specific posters targeted), surely not warranting the same ban length as posters saying they wish player x or poster y would die.

If I had written in the Nadal vs Monaco thread in their RG match "Anyone thinking Monaco will win this should just kill themselves?", am I wishing death on people thinking Monaco will win? No, I'm merely emphasizing how unlikely such event is and how people predicting it have no clue what they're talking about. Same as how Certinfy was using exaggeration to emphasize how ridiculous (in his opinion) it is to say Ferrer is better than Tsonga or Berdych. If I say to a fellow poster: "I wish you get run over by a car and die.", am I wishing death on him? Most certainly yes. Even if MTF condemns every post that might potentially be constructed as a death wish, the fact that everyone gets the same ban (3 months) is pretty baffling.

Rules are rules, but they lose all meaning if they are not applied with common sense and become a parody of themselves. In civil law, that's what judges are for. In Internet forums, that's what moderators are for; if there's no concern to analyse the situation at hand and just blindly apply the rules, then we might as well scrap moderators and use some automatic system to ban posters who use certain words/expressions. Blind application of rules = appalling moderation. No two ways about it; any system that doesn't take into account circumstances and, yes, also a poster's overall history, is a very flawed system. You don't a need a law degree here, just some common sense.
This is the exact reason the rule is in place at the beginning. Posters yelling at each other to kill oneself because of difference in opinion.

And Jason understood what he did is bannable from what I read in his post before the ban.
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:26 PM   #45
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mae View Post
I like Certinfy very much and was shocked to see he was banned. However, he has posted here for years and knows all about the Rule of Wishing Death. He wished that the people who still think Ferrer is better than Tsonga and Berdych should just kill themselves. That is wishing death just because he didn't name a particular person it is still a death wish. As a matter of fact it was a death wish against me because I am one of those people.
Really, you think he was wishing you (and other people with the same view) to die? Should he have worded his post differently? Most definitely. Was he seriously wishing death upon those people? I'm not even going to answer that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
This is the exact reason the rule is in place at the beginning. Posters yelling at each other to kill oneself because of difference in opinion.

And Jason understood what he did is bannable from what I read in his post before the ban.

You do have a point. I disagree, but I concede that his post was worded poorly and a ban was maybe in order. But 3 months, really? It'd be understandable if he had said player x or player y should die, but that was not the case, it was a vague wish at best.

Following the rule literally, the 3 month ban is correct. But the rule is obviously flawed, as is every rule that allows for no flexibility - the rule assumes that every death wish is the same regardless of circumstances, tone..., which is obviously wrong.

But then again, rules are useless if they are not interpreted with common sense. Anyone who ever studied law knows that applying rules literally/blindly is more arbitrary and generates more injustice than even the non-existence of rules. MTF is sadly a proof of that with good posters like Certinfy and until very recently Leng Jai, among others, banned while some of the worst trolls you find (not naming anyone, but you can who I'm talking about) are still 'free' and posting.

Here's a question, though. Knowing Jason (from his time here) and the circumstances in which his comment was written, which one of these two do you think he meant: (a) I want people who think Ferrer is better than Berdych and Tsonga dead or (b) it is beyond ridiculous that people still think Ferrer is better than Berdych and Tsonga, those people have no clue at all (albeit with poor wording).

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