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Old 06-19-2012, 07:41 AM   #16
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I think there's too much emphasis on "wishing death/wishing injury" on here. I find posts like "I will find you" much more threatening than "I hope you die in a freak yachting accident", because in the first one there as an obvious agent capable of action. I would actually leave the second one without any consequences.

Death has entered popculture a long time ago (black humour sitcoms, comedy horrors and so on), languages themselves are softening it up ("you're killing me" and countless other expressions in various languages), cartoons are full of it, even this forum uses obvious graphic violence like or (known as :retard: for many years!) or "threatening" emoticons like . So these are fun and all right und suddenly we are all very serious about verbal wishing death? How come?

If two posters willingly engage in a violent wishing death brawl, I'd let them do that. if you receive any signals that one user is constantly bullied, "wished death upon" by the other and finds it threatening, I'd act.

But it is all always subject to interpretation, and I don't want to be in mods' shoes. I could easily imagine the "I will find you" threat being a joke too.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I see no real necessity for any poster to wish death, even in a joking manner, but perhaps there could be a smilie specially designated for use when the poster feels he/she really has to do so, and words between the smilies are able to be disregarded. For example A new deadly virus has been developed and they are looking for volunteers to test it. I've put your name forward

This would avoid the problem rightly highlighted above that any poster could claim it was a joke after the event.

The written word is always open to misinterpretation, where in a spoken conversation tone of voice and body language can convey the meaning clearly.

A mother yelling at her unruly children, "Oh, go and play on the motorway!" is not really wishing them dead, but put it in writing and it becomes serious.

On balance I would prefer no change to this easily understood rule, but I know I'm an old fogey!
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:24 AM   #18
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Maybe we need to think in terms of relaxing the rules in some forums but not others?

E.G. General messages, NT, player forums, etc stay the same but chat threads under NT the rules are less stringent?
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenoldie View Post
I see no real necessity for any poster to wish death, even in a joking manner, but perhaps there could be a smilie specially designated for use when the poster feels he/she really has to do so, and words between the smilies are able to be disregarded. For example A new deadly virus has been developed and they are looking for volunteers to test it. I've put your name forward

This would avoid the problem rightly highlighted above that any poster could claim it was a joke after the event.

The written word is always open to misinterpretation, where in a spoken conversation tone of voice and body language can convey the meaning clearly.

A mother yelling at her unruly children, "Oh, go and play on the motorway!" is not really wishing them dead, but put it in writing and it becomes serious.

On balance I would prefer no change to this easily understood rule, but I know I'm an old fogey!
And this old fogey has made it very clear where I stand on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Maybe we need to think in terms of relaxing the rules in some forums but not others?

E.G. General messages, NT, player forums, etc stay the same but chat threads under NT the rules are less stringent?
I have spent a lot of time in those "Chat Threads" and believe me they can get bad enough without any relaxing of any rule let alone "wishing death". You are going down a slippery slope with the idea of changing this rule, but if that is where you want to go there is nothing I can do to stop you.
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:18 PM   #20
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Maybe we need to think in terms of relaxing the rules in some forums but not others?

E.G. General messages, NT, player forums, etc stay the same but chat threads under NT the rules are less stringent?
Personally, I think it's a rule for the entire forum, or not at all.... Right now it is a very clear and simple rule....anyone can understand it and it is not that difficult to make sure (if you feel the need to joke about this sort of thing ) that people see you are joking.

reported post for wishing death/injury......oh it's in player forum....ban...oh it's in GM, that is okay then... somehow, I dont think that will work. It will create places where people will go on purpose to write such stuff..... how is that different from opening one subforum where people can post anything they want and get away with it?
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Maybe we need to think in terms of relaxing the rules in some forums but not others?

E.G. General messages, NT, player forums, etc stay the same but chat threads under NT the rules are less stringent?
Agree with Sjoukje here. There would be endless complaining and whining with this.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:30 PM   #22
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

I don't know, people can be really nasty over the internet.....

I was always supportive of this rule but saulo's banning made me see how unrightfully can be and how can innocent but more peculiar people can get punished for it.

First of all, it should be absolutely necessary that reporting insults between posters should only be reported by the offended person. People outside the banter don't always know the history, the habits between the two, etc....That's how Saulo had his 1st ban who was even more undeserved than the almost permanent second.
Secondly, it should be mandatory that the previous posting history of the bannable poster should be known/checked. If I say "Die, Nole, die" even if I only say it for TT purposes or as a joke, at least mods would have a case. But if, lets say, Betty says "I wish Andy Murray just go and die" when he fails for the 456456456th time to win a slam, seriously, who can take that as a death wish?

It's also not fair that a inexperienced person, and I talk here not only experience as a mod, but also in life in general to get to judge someone that, maybe, has a more...let's say, and I don't want to insult anyone....complicated way of thinking and phrasing... Or I heard even worse, that a computer programme decides the bans based on infraction points
i know that every ban is decided after long discussion and judgements between mods but it's very easy to jump on the "is how was done for everybody so we should do the same" train. It takes no judgement at all, actually. You just hide behind some rules and forget to think like a or about a human been.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by acionescu View Post
It's also not fair that a inexperienced person, and I talk here not only experience as a mod, but also in life in general to get to judge someone that, maybe, has a more...let's say, and I don't want to insult anyone....complicated way of thinking and phrasing...
Age has nothing to do with it. Sometimes a 20 year old is much "wiser" than a 40 year old....it all depends on the person, not the age. Secondly, all the mods see the infractions/warnings that are handed out. Any mod who feels a warning/infraction/ban is out of place will ask about that and it will be looked at. Some infractions have been changed to the right one or even overturned and / or deleted. What also happens is that if a mod (young or old) is not sure which is the right infraction, or, if any should be given at all. So, they are not handed out "because we can"..... There is always some form of checking things go right going on.

Quote:
Or I heard even worse, that a computer programme decides the bans based on infraction points
.
that is a software thing ..... out of our hands..... but, we nearly always spot if this happens and can set it back to the appropriate ban. Of course we can still miss some...but there are always people around who notice it or the poster in question can email us and ask about it.
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:14 PM   #24
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule



Sorry, but you get back when we started and it looks like this thread is just a waste of time then if i get served that PC crap, no offense And this "we mods, should stick together" attitude doesnt give you credibility at all. i still remember raginglamb happiness when he banned Excalibur and how he got defended by you all


I wont say that a 20 yo is uneducated, but not all people are creative creative enough or even smart, there I said it, enough to understand more complex people that they have no contact with.
And the same underage mod who had the mouth filled with "rules are rules" sintagma, I suppose, didnt even know the rules of the TT tournament she was managing of course she only received a slap on the wrist, because, ofc, "we are all humans"

Fanboying less-known players and trying to be nice with everyone during less than a year doesn't qualify you to be a mod, sorry, you need more than that.

It comes as no surprise for me, though, that from all my post you only chose to answer to the part when i was saying something slightly unappreciative towards the mods and not to the suggestions I made...
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

maybe I didnt respond to everything you wrote...maybe I need time to think what to say about the rest...is that so weird?

To answer another bit of your post, just because you know someone, or a moderator knows someone, that doesnt mean they are above the MTF rules. I know Betty too....and I would be surprised, to say the least, if she would start posting what you gave as an example, but just because Betty (or anyone else I know) says someone should go and die, doesnt make it less serious.

Right now it seems you are not happy with one particular mod but the thing is, the mods are not under discussion here.....it is the "wishing death rule". So, more suggestions on how to change it or leave it as it is are of course always welcome.
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Last edited by Carlita : 06-19-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:00 AM   #26
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Decisions on bans should not have to depend on one moderator, I think.


Two examples:

1. I've seen people get banned for wishing death when it was obvious to me, within a chat context, that it was a joke, esp. given the fact that it was said between two friends. The rule was simply used by a third poster who saw an opportunity to get another poster banned.
The ban for wishing death was upheld right away.

2. I've also seen somebody in GM writing away his/her bitterness about a player by wishing that the player would fall and crash his head so hard on the court that the skull breaks open and the contents would spill out on the surface.
--> this person only got a "wishing injury" ban which is less lengthy than a "wishing death" ban (this to me is ludicrious: I'd like to find out how this can be categorised as "injury" when death seems a sure end of this scenario)

It's inconsistencies like that that will get people upset more than the rule itself, I feel.

So, perhaps things like that need to be a group decision or a majority decision rather than the action of one individual mod. This will often mean that the decision will be delayed until enough moderators had the time to vote on a decision but it'll cut down subjectivity even though you can not erase it entirely.

The task of a moderator is not easy and indeed, a lot of it will be open to interpretation.

Maybe - just a suggestion - we need some sort of poster's council: a fair selection of posters to assure a fair representation, posters who are not seen as impulsive, easy to bait hotheads. Posters who don't have a black-and-white view on the players. (good luck in finding enough of them) and you would need to be careful that the council is selected well enough so that popularity on MTF won't affect the way rules are upheld.
So, if there's an argument about a decision made by moderators, you can explain the case (with links to posts and such, to view the matter in its proper context) to the council and they'll get to vote on it.
This could give a decision a broader foundation if a decision by the mods is questioned.
(perhaps too complicated, though)

Personally, I think that the rule is very simple. Do not wish death, even as a joke. Don't hide behind others if you are stupid enough to break it.

Last edited by Castafiore : 06-20-2012 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Personally, I think that the rule is very simple. Do not wish death, even as a joke.
I agree with that.
How wishing death could be even considered a joke is beyond me.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:31 AM   #28
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

exactly
there is a million ways to joke

i wouldnt like anyone wish bad things on me for example
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
exactly
there is a million ways to joke
exactly
this is one of a million ways to joke, a legit one

I think the idea mentioned above that only a "wished death upon" poster should be allowed to report such a post is a very wise one (other postere can of course send PMs to make the said poster aware of such a fact) but the ultimate decision to report belongs to the "offended" party. That would allow friends to indulge in death wishing if they find it funny. The "offending" party of course takes the big risk and has to be certain that they know "offended" poster well enough and some MTF freindships may break due to a misplaced death wish, but I'd still allow posters to take that risks if they really want to.

What should be done with wishing death on players? They can't report posts (except Djokovic, of course. Novak . I hope... all is well).
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:41 PM   #30
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Default Re: The "Wishing Death" rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Decisions on bans should not have to depend on one moderator, I think.
I think it has been stated that they don't depend on one moderator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Maybe - just a suggestion - we need some sort of poster's council.
I wouldn't want this at all. The Moderators should be allowed to do their jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore;12ll8566
Personally, I think that the rule is very simple. Do not wish death, even as a joke. Don't hide behind others if you are stupid enough to break it.
This I can agree with 100%
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