What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season? - Page 4 - MensTennisForums.com

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Old 07-28-2012, 02:22 AM   #46
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

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Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
I think you're overstating the speed difference between 2nd week and 1st week Wimbledon.
The grass mostly wears behind the baseline, where shots can't land anyway.

The worn grass on and just in front of the baseline is only going to affect very few shots that land very deep.
Well, I certainly noticed a huge difference about how Jo played in first and second week, not only this year but every year since 2010. I guess you could argue he's simply facing tougher competition in the second week, but there are opposite cases like Nadal (vulnerable in the first week, almost unstoppable in the second week) that seem to confirm my point.

For instance, would a pushathon like this year's Murray vs Ferrer QF even be possible in week 1? Doubt it.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:19 AM   #47
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

It obviously slows down, but I wouldn't say 'huge difference'.

Muzz and Ferrer could do a pushathon on almost any surface, such is their prowess at pushing. Exacerbated when two defensive players meet. More about the players than the surface. Fed played a rather (very?) attacking style in the final, coming in a ridiculous amount of times by his standards, and having 70%+ success at the net. And that's when the court is its slowest. I'm sure there were some pushathons in the early rounds, I just can't remember them, because I don't typically watch pushers.

Chela vs Klizan in R1 lasted nearly 5 hours, but I didn't see it. Chela was probably grinding, but I imagine Klizan was bashing.
Obviously not any clay mug can push on a fast surface, but Muzz and Ferrer are the push-elites.

Last edited by Slice Winner : 07-28-2012 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:44 AM   #48
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

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Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
It obviously slows down, but I wouldn't say 'huge difference'.

Muzz and Ferrer could do a pushathon on almost any surface, such is their prowess at pushing. Exacerbated when two defensive players meet. More about the players than the surface. Fed played a rather (very?) attacking style in the final, coming in a ridiculous amount of times by his standards, and having 70%+ success at the net. And that's when the court is its slowest. I'm sure there were some pushathons in the early rounds, I just can't remember them, because I don't typically watch pushers.

Chela vs Klizan in R1 lasted nearly 5 hours, but I didn't see it. Chela was probably grinding, but I imagine Klizan was bashing.
Obviously not any clay mug can push on a fast surface, but Muzz and Ferrer are the push-elites.
That's a fair analysis. I reckon mega pushers like Murray and Ferrer can turn any match on any surface into a grindathon.

But how to explain Nadal though? His chronic struggles in the first week against low ranked players followed by decimations of the best players in the world in week 2 seem to suggest there is a noticeable difference.

Jo too, although he faces tougher opposition in week 2, his serve and groundstrokes are clearly not as effective imo.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:05 AM   #49
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

You gotta remember that Nadal often starts slowly in any given tournament. By the latter stages, he has warmed up.
Look at RG 2011 when he nearly lost to Isner in the first round (I think). Obviously at Wim, the slower surface in the 2nd week helps as well, but if someone takes him to 5 at Wim, it's because they're playing out of their skin more than anything else.

Jo served pretty well at last year's Wim QF The let-down against Nole was inevitable, and not due to court speed.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:09 AM   #50
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

I was gonna say Mark Lenders must think he is gonna get a medal here, because Tsonga is super Tsonga.. then entered the thread and saw he is the OP
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:12 AM   #51
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

Tsonga could win gold because it's Bo3, but it's Tsonga, so he could also lose 2nd round to Raonic.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:19 AM   #52
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

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Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
You gotta remember that Nadal often starts slowly in any given tournament. By the latter stages, he has warmed up.
Look at RG 2011 when he nearly lost to Isner in the first round (I think). Obviously at Wim, the slower surface in the 2nd week helps as well, but if someone takes him to 5 at Wim, it's because they're playing out of their skin more than anything else.

Jo served pretty well at last year's Wim QF The let-down against Nole was inevitable, and not due to court speed.
Yeah, but I do still believe there's clear difference. For defensive players, getting past the first week of Wimbledon is the biggest challenge, once they get there the surface will suit them more.

Jo did serve insanely well against Federer; he did serve very well in the semis too though, that's the only reason he even sneaked a set as the rest of his game was mostly atrocious. I do agree that defeat had nothing to do with court speed. This year against Murray, though, although Jo's tactics were baffingly bad, I doubt it would have mattered much if the surface was fast enough to not let Murray take full swings on some of those passing shots he pulled.


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Tsonga could win gold because it's Bo3, but it's Tsonga, so he could also lose 2nd round to Raonic.
Tsonga has never struggled with the best of 5 format, he actually has a good record in 5 setters and usually overperforms in Slams compared to his Masters performances. The main advantage for him is that the grass won't be worn out (I think) by the latter stages of the tournament.

And yes, he could definitely lose to Milos, very tricky match that one. Jo hates playing big servers - mostly because he has by far the worst ROS in the top 10, it's atrocious. That will not be an easy match for Tsonga, he is in danger for sure.

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I was gonna say Mark Lenders must think he is gonna get a medal here, because Tsonga is super Tsonga.. then entered the thread and saw he is the OP
So I'm optimistic about my favorite tennis players, what a heinous offense.

And yes, Jo could obviously get a medal here.

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Old 07-28-2012, 04:28 AM   #53
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

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Yeah, but I do still believe there's clear difference. For defensive players, getting past the first week of Wimbledon is the biggest challenge, once they get there the surface will suit them more.

Jo did serve insanely well against Federer; he did serve very well in the semis too though, that's the only reason he even sneaked a set as the rest of his game was mostly atrocious. I do agree that defeat had nothing to do with court speed. This year against Murray, though, although Jo's tactics were baffingly bad, I doubt it would have mattered much if the surface was fast enough to not let Murray take full swings on some of those passing shots he pulled.




Tsonga has never struggled with the best of 5 format, he actually has a good record in 5 setters. The main advantage for him is that the grass won't be worn out (I think) by the latter stages of the tournament.

And yes, he could definitely lose to Milos, very tricky match that one. Jo hates playing big servers - mostly because he has by far the worst ROS in the top 10, it's atrocious. That will not be an easy match for Tsonga, he is in danger for sure.



So I'm optimistic about my favorite tennis players, what a heinous offense.

And yes, Jo could obviously get a medal here.
Yea, the semi was there for the taking this year, but his tactics were mind-numbingly bad.

And yea, he'll have trouble returning Milos' serve, but if he can get it in the court, he'll be the better player in the rallies (unless Clownga shows up).
Milos hasn't worked out how to move on grass yet.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:35 AM   #54
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Default Re: What are your expectations of Jo Wilfried Tsonga for the grass season?

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Yea, the semi was there for the taking this year, but his tactics were mind-numbingly bad.

And yea, he'll have trouble returning Milos' serve, but if he can get it in the court, he'll be the better player in the rallies (unless Clownga shows up).
Milos hasn't worked out how to move on grass yet.
Yeah. Everyone and their dog know Murray's passing shots go crosscourt all the time, yet Jo kept not covering it. Not to mention he kept sending his second serves to Murray's backhand. It was a bit frustrating to watch (even more so two days later watching Federer pretty much anticipate each of Murray's predictable passing shots); I do love Jo's all-out attacking game and his overall demeanour, but sometimes I wish he did give some thought to tactics, or just hired a coach to do so, and made tactical adjustments when required. He's clearly having fun out there and enjoying his life on the tour as a top player (as shown by his reaction after losing to Murray, laughing and hugging Andy...), which is great to see as a fan, but I can't help but feel he could be doing more in terms of results.

And yes, if Tsonga gets Milos's serve back in play enough, he should win comfortably. It's a big if though, Jo's return is atrocious, he hates facing big servers. On the other hand, I don't expect Milos to return Jo's serve either, so we'll be in for some tiebreaks for sure, and Jo needs to prevail there.
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