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Old 10-29-2012, 06:18 PM   #106
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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I'm not sure what his real attitude is as I don't know him personally. His intws don't count. I don't think he or russian men in general are really sexist. They are just spoiled. Spoiled by women.
How are women to blame for men's refusal to grow up?

Also, why do you think Marat's interviews don't count? His stance seems pretty unequivocal in the 2011 Art Voyage article, for example.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:48 PM   #107
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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How are women to blame for men's refusal to grow up?
I'd say it's demographics to be blamed. In russia any man who's not a complete idiot and not an alcoholic is already a catch for a woman who is afraid to stay alone. I guess there were many other factors like WW2. I sppose boys were cherished and spoiled by mothers more than girls after the war (my father is a typical example) etc.

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Also, why do you think Marat's interviews don't count? His stance seems pretty unequivocal in the 2011 Art Voyage article, for example.
I don't know. it's just when it comes to personal life a man can say all right things in public and be a home tyrant, or he may say silly sexist things and be a loving and respecting partner/husband.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:10 PM   #108
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

I don't know, mer. I'd guess that a person who doesn't consider himself innately superior to half of the world's population simply on the basis of his gender would NOT make silly sexist statements in public - and would not be a tyrant at home either.

I'm with monkey on the point of it not being women's "fault" that some men (and some women, too) are sexist.

It's a bit like racism, to me.

If I do not want to be racist then I am the only one responsible for whether or not I examine my views and beliefs and change those which are racist - including those which I have imbibed by virtue of the society in which I live. It seems to me that if I blame the subjects of any remnants of racism which might exist within myself, then what I am saying to myself is that I do not care whether I am racist or not.

So - to me it's a question of taking responsibility for the person which I wish to be. The same is true for Marat - his continuing to hold on to sexist views is both his responsibility and his choice.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:43 AM   #109
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

I will try to explain, why women are responsible for spoiling the men.

Imagine the following situation:
Ever since your birth everyone adores you, your mom spoils you rotten and tells you how special you are, your sister is spoiling you, your female cousins do that too, let leave the aunties and grandmas. You grow up and see that the neighbor girls adore you too. Later on the female colleagues tend to take a good care for you. So, wouldn't you think you are special and the world owes you something? And who allowed that?

I don't think the right word is "sexism", it's a simple demand and supply issue. Men are in deficit, hence more treasured.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:52 AM   #110
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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Ever since your birth everyone adores you, your mom spoils you rotten and tells you how special you are, your sister is spoiling you, your female cousins do that too, let leave the aunties and grandmas. You grow up and see that the neighbor girls adore you too. Later on the female colleagues tend to take a good care for you. So, wouldn't you think you are special and the world owes you something? And who allowed that? I don't think the right word is "sexism", it's a simple demand and supply issue. Men are in deficit, hence more treasured.
If there is a deficit of men, who caused that?
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:54 AM   #111
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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If there is a deficit of men, who caused that?
various reasons. Irochka named a few - wars, alcoholism etc. If you say the wars are men's fault, we'll go as far back in history as Helena the Beautiful

Someone earlier said "they refuse to grow up". Well, they don't have to grow up. Men go from their mother's hand to their wife's hands.
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Last edited by AnnieNik : 10-30-2012 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:31 AM   #112
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

Good discussion girls. Especially in the Eastern Europe maybe, there's also the so-called 'risk behaviour' of young males - car crashes, all kind of other accidents (involing alcohol and drugs). So here for example by the age of 40 there are more living females than males. Hope you understand what I wanted to say.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:51 AM   #113
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

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various reasons. Irochka named a few - wars, alcoholism etc. If you say the wars are men's fault, we'll go as far back in history as Helena the Beautiful
It's not about fault-finding or finger-pointing. Historically, war is an activity instigated, driven and perpetuated by males.

In any case, if you mean Helen of Troy, the Trojan wars were precipitated, not by her, but by men squabbling over her.


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Someone earlier said "they refuse to grow up".
Yes, that was me, in the post at the top of the page.


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Well, they don't have too grow up. Men go from their mother's hand to their wife's hands.
I question that. It seems to me that men don't want to grow up, so they simply opt out of their share of the domestic burden. As a woman, you can either leave him or stay, but absolutely nothing you say or do (not even leaving him ) will get a spoiled man to pull his weight.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:57 AM   #114
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Default Re: Political Discussion Thread

This looks like the classic east-west divide to me....and there are , at least the way I see it, clear historical and cultural reasons for it....its not just an eastern european thing - clearly - I mean...

Why do women in China abort female embryos when they can only have one child....why are boys more prized and valued in much of southeast Asian culture.....? the answer is pretty obvious - men hold the power and they determine the values in these societies - as they once did (and, lets not kid ourselves, still do in western society just maybe not so obviously)...now, I don't see it as women 'allowing' men to live their entire lives in a juvenile bubble - nor is it men's 'fault'that they do when not challenged or encouraged to evolve....

Now, just as I consider men and women to be 'equal', I also consider they share the responsibility for this scenario equally - the thing is, if things are going to change, I think it is primarily women who have to put that change in motion - they have to examine themselves and their wants and needs just as men do - and while there are still a majority of women who comply with Marat's view that women "realise" themselves through their husbands...and cannot see themselves as individuals first and foremost then....well, things will remain the same...

historically, it's interesting that in the UK at least, the fact that many women -having worked in munitions and on the land and realised themselves as individuals in the second world war - were not so easy to get back into the kitchens may well have contributed to the feminist 'revolution' of the 60's (hypothesizing here...so stay with me)...in the east, the end of the second world war led down the dark path of communist oppression - women sure had to WORK like men in the new world of egalitarianism... but they also had to retain their role as 'housewives' as WELL...they never had a chance to have a revolution in terms of gender roles.....we in the west were free to do that - they weren't - and in other situations, its poverty that keeps the woman down as much as anything else...

and in Russia in particular, as mer pointed out, the real problem of the life expectancy of available men - its no real surprise that so many russian women are willing to sell themselves into marriage - or - a life of domestic servitude in order to get out - and have a man to 'support' her...until women are ready to take full responsibility for themselves, financially and socially, we will never free ourselves of the 'tyranny' of man - and frankly, men have been ruling this planet (with a few exceptions, of course - yet how many of the great female 'rulers' of history were famed for being 'like a man'...?) for way, WAY too long - and look at what a fine mess they have made of it....women really need to start standing up for themselves and demand change!!!

:-( OK - crosspatch rant over and open to discussion! :-)
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:03 AM   #115
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As a woman, you can either leave him or stay, but absolutely nothing you say or do (not even leaving him ) will get a spoiled man to pull his weight.
The question is what majority of women find acceptable. In Russia if a woman leaves a man the very next day he can find another woman who will accept him with all his shortcomings. If a man leaves a woman she is very likely to stay alone for the rest of her life. Hence, the general attidute towards women by majority of men.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:03 AM   #116
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inez Fabulous post - stimulating debate, peeps - too bad I have to leave for work right now - back later ...
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:35 AM   #117
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until women are ready to take full responsibility for themselves, financially and socially, we will never free ourselves of the 'tyranny' of man
and what about responsibility for their children? Women are capable of taking care of themselves, even in russia, but being a single mother is compelety different matter.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:38 PM   #118
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Im going to jump in here because being much older than most of you, I am sure, I have raised children by myself and this was in the 60s when things were chaotic. Everyday was a fight just to survive and put food on the table and get my kids off to school--no help from their father and no help from the so-called government because it was run by men and they had no clue what it was to be responsible for anyone other than themselves. Today I see that changing and more men taking responsibility for their kids, although not a lot of "growing up" going on. Gender roles have been pretty much the same for a long, long time and changing those is going to be difficult. I leave it in the capable hands of strong women like those of you posting here to get the job done. Don't let me down!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:49 PM   #119
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Good point, Ira - the issue of children is a difficult one....but here's my personal take on it.
OK, leaving aside for the moment the fact that becoming pregnant is a choice - (recognising that there are many "man-made" impediments to women across the world actually exercisnig the 'right' NOT to have children) part of the 'price' women have paid for their 'freedom' is that 'choice' about "career or kids' - and obviously personal circumstances make that an easire chioce for some its easy to have both and for others it's not - now, part of the difficulty is the fact that socially (and I am tallking primarity about 'the West' here) the family structure has evolved AWAY from the extended family - so the rearing of children has become the responsibity of the individual rather than the group - resulting in the child-care industry ! part of a woman's choice about whether they have a child should therefore be partly determined by her ability to raise the child in OR out of a co-habitive (did I just invent an english word there...?) relationship....

....personally speaking, and with the UTMOST respect to women who have children and who struggle and fight to do the best for them ....I PERSONALLY think there is just toomuch emphasis put onthis notion of the "Right" to have a child...andall the effort of medical research put into circumventing biology....I am sure it must be very upsetting for a woman who discovers she is biologically unable to have a child...but - frankly, there is a REASON for that - if you can't have a child - it's sad for you, but you don't have some kind of unalienable RIGHT to have one anyway just because science has made it possible - there are enough orphans in the world after all.. and it seems to me that conversely, overall, while the affluent nations have falling birthrates, the poorest, most poverty-stricken nations have the highest - yes, women in these places basically churn out child after child on the basis that maybe one or two will survive to theoretically support the parents in their old age...what chance of self determination for these women - uneducated, brainwashed by religious (male-inspired) dogma about their role and purpose in life under the guise of "faith"...????

The world population is completely F*C#*D because of human - read primarity MALE interventions - for example, China decided what - some decades ago that there were too many of them - so they brutally enforce a one child policy: What happens? they start killing the girls in favour of the boys so now they are suddenly waking up the the dual fact that - A) they have an aging population and not enough young people to satisfy the projected workforce requirements, and not only that,B) they have too many men and not enough women to balance the future population - now, very sorry to break it to the guys out there, but in fact, biologically speaking, we don't NEED too many men - just a few are enough... because human beings don't seem to consider themselves just another species on the planet, we have stuffed not just our environment, but pretty much all natural population regulation as a result of human intervention.....

OK - deep breath, nez - time to go to a meeting and talk about something completely different....I seem to be ranting a lot these days!!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:53 PM   #120
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PS _ it will come as no surprise, I am sure - that all my kids have 4 legs and fur..... :-)
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