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View Poll Results: How will it look?

Nadal more than 15 matches ahead. 103 39.31%
Nadal 13-14 matches ahead. 25 9.54%
Nadal 11-12 matches ahead. 19 7.25%
Nadal 9-10 matches ahead. 20 7.63%
Nadal 7-8 matches ahead. 20 7.63%
Nadal 5-6 matches ahead. 18 6.87%
Nadal 3-4 matches ahead. 5 1.91%
Nadal 1-2 matches ahead. 1 0.38%
Equal 4 1.53%
Federer ahead 47 17.94%
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-05-2012, 11:41 PM   #1111
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
Rafa was a slam contender at all the slams from 2008 on (at least SF in every slam that year).
So if the Nadal-Fed h2h is so important, then Nadal should have stopped Federer from winning USO 2008, RG 2009, Wim 2009, Aus 2010, Wim 2012.
Contender? Yes. It doesn't mean it's an automatic win for Nadal though. And even if they met in those majors, the H2H is not 28-0, it's 18-10 for a 64% winning rate against Roger. You mentioned the majors that Roger won from 2008 onwards (even the ones he didn't play Rafa, for some reason) – totalling five – how about mentioning the ones that Nadal won during the same time frame – which totals eight. So, from 2008 onwards, of all the majors won between the two of them, the ratio is 8:5 in favour of Nadal, for a winning rate of 62%. Seems to correlate with the H2H percentage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
Then Fed would be on 12 slams, and Rafa on something like 16. In that case, the h2h would actually matter.
On the contrary, if Rafa led the slam count as well as leading the H2H, the H2H wouldn't matter because it's normally a given. If Person A has more slams than Person B, it stands to reason that Person A must lead the H2H so it doesn't need to be mentioned and won't be as important – see Sampras-Agassi, Borg-Connors, Lendl-McEnroe. What makes the Federer-Nadal H2H strange is Federer has six more majors than Rafa but has eight more losses in their H2H. A difference of two or three wins could be handwaved but an eight win difference is pretty big (and 28 matches is a large sample size for this sport). I'm certain you won't find another player who has led so much in the slam count but fell behind so much in the H2H, which is why it's always brought up. Personally, I attribute it to being a matchup issue, similar to Edberg-Courier, but it is what it is.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:19 AM   #1112
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stewietennis View Post
Contender? Yes. It doesn't mean it's an automatic win for Nadal though. And even if they met in those majors, the H2H is not 28-0, it's 18-10 for a 64% winning rate against Roger. You mentioned the majors that Roger won from 2008 onwards (even the ones he didn't play Rafa, for some reason) – totalling five – how about mentioning the ones that Nadal won during the same time frame – which totals eight. So, from 2008 onwards, of all the majors won between the two of them, the ratio is 8:5 in favour of Nadal, for a winning rate of 62%. Seems to correlate with the H2H percentage.



On the contrary, if Rafa led the slam count as well as leading the H2H, the H2H wouldn't matter because it's normally a given. If Person A has more slams than Person B, it stands to reason that Person A must lead the H2H so it doesn't need to be mentioned and won't be as important – see Sampras-Agassi, Borg-Connors, Lendl-McEnroe. What makes the Federer-Nadal H2H strange is Federer has six more majors than Rafa but has eight more losses in their H2H. A difference of two or three wins could be handwaved but an eight win difference is pretty big (and 28 matches is a large sample size for this sport). I'm certain you won't find another player who has led so much in the slam count but fell behind so much in the H2H, which is why it's always brought up. Personally, I attribute it to being a matchup issue, similar to Edberg-Courier, but it is what it is.
Agreed. The H2H gap has widened as Nadal has improved, and, at the same time, Federer has declined.

One must remember that there is five years' difference between the players. Considering a tennis player's peak is generally over the course of 4-5 years (21-25 seems to be the rule of thumb, although perhaps that is changing with the advances in technology and playing styles we see now) that is a significant gap in age. Granted Nadal started - and started peaking - at an unusually young age. Granted also, Federer's decline has still seen him win five odd slams and regain the number one spot recently - which people seem to either attribute to just how special a player he is, or just how weak the field is currently.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:27 AM   #1113
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

You guys have totally missed my point.
Jeez.
For the h2h to mean anything, Nadal needed to actually get far enough in those slams I mentioned to stop Federer.
He wasn't able to, Fed leads 17 > 11 and thus the h2h is meaningless.
If Nadal ends up with more slams with Fed, the h2h will be a big deal. Until then, it's not.

See my logic?
I'm taking a slightly different approach to most people here, but the logic surely isn't difficult to follow.

Look at it this way: Muzza leads 9-8 in the h2h. He wasn't able to stop Roger from winning any slams. The h2h means almost nothing.
Nadal leads 18-10 or whatever it is. He stopped Fed from winning a few slams, but also wasn't able to stop Fed winning a shitload of slams.

The h2h by itself doesn't mean anything in the GOAT argument until it costs someone slams (or in Fed's case, the overall slam record).

If you flip it on its head, Muzza has a winning record against Fedsly. HOWEVER, Roger has won when it mattered, LITERALLY costing Muzzbot 3 slams.
Therefore, for Muzz, the h2h means dick squat, because it didn't gain him slams.

I'm using the slams = GOATness logic here, but everyone else does, so deal with it.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:35 AM   #1114
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
You guys have totally missed my point.
Jeez.
For the h2h to mean anything, Nadal needed to actually get far enough in those slams I mentioned to stop Federer.
He wasn't able to, Fed leads 17 > 11 and thus the h2h is meaningless.
If Nadal ends up with more slams with Fed, the h2h will be a big deal. Until then, it's not.

See my logic?
I'm taking a slightly different approach to most people here, but the logic surely isn't difficult to follow.

Look at it this way: Muzza leads 9-8 in the h2h. He wasn't able to stop Roger from winning any slams. The h2h means almost nothing.
Nadal leads 18-10 or whatever it is. He stopped Fed from winning a few slams, but also wasn't able to stop Fed winning a shitload of slams.

The h2h by itself doesn't mean anything in the GOAT argument until it costs someone slams (or in Fed's case, the overall slam record).

If you flip it on its head, Muzza has a winning record against Fedsly. HOWEVER, Roger has won when it mattered, LITERALLY costing Muzzbot 3 slams.
Therefore, for Muzz, the h2h means dick squat, because it didn't gain him slams.

I'm using the slams = GOATness logic here, but everyone else does, so deal with it.
to be fair using your logic you have to consider the fact that Federer won a lot of his slams 2003/2004/2005/2006 years when Nadal was very young...... a few in which Nadal was not around at all
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:38 AM   #1115
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

hrbaty is better than the pair of them

h2h rulez
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:40 AM   #1116
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
You guys have totally missed my point.
Jeez.

For the h2h to mean anything, Nadal needed to actually get far enough in those slams I mentioned to stop Federer.
He wasn't able to, Fed leads 17 > 11 and thus the h2h is meaningless.
If Nadal ends up with more slams with Fed, the h2h will be a big deal. Until then, it's not.

See my logic?
I'm taking a slightly different approach to most people here, but the logic surely isn't difficult to follow.

Look at it this way: Muzza leads 9-8 in the h2h. He wasn't able to stop Roger from winning any slams. The h2h means almost nothing.
Nadal leads 18-10 or whatever it is. He stopped Fed from winning a few slams, but also wasn't able to stop Fed winning a shitload of slams.

If you flip it on its head, Muzza has a winning record against Fedsly. HOWEVER, Roger has won when it mattered, LITERALLY costing Muzzbot 3 slams.
Therefore, for Muzz, the h2h means dick squat, because it didn't gain him slams.

I'm using the slams = GOATness logic here, but everyone else does, so deal with it.

No - I understood your point. It's not that complex, really.

But I am merely agreeing with, and expanding on, another poster's explanation of the H2H difference between someone who is quite possibly the best player tennis has seen in the modern era, and his greatest rival, who whilst being a great player, is not quite in the same category.

The H2H is not nearly a important as titles won, etc.

But it is a blemish for Federer in an extremely impressive career, especially since 6 of these losses for Federer were in major finals and 2 in major semi-finals.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:57 AM   #1117
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

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Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
No - I understood your point. It's not that complex, really.

But I am merely agreeing with, and expanding on, another poster's explanation of the H2H difference between someone who is quite possibly the best player tennis has seen in the modern era, and his greatest rival, who whilst being a great player, is not quite in the same category.

The H2H is not nearly a important as titles won, etc.

But it is a blemish for Federer in an extremely impressive career, especially since 6 of these losses for Federer were in major finals and 2 in major semi-finals.
True not ideal. but the "blemish" is not something that will be talked about or even been remembered by most once either retires. It's all about the final total career record.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:03 AM   #1118
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

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Originally Posted by Mountaindewslave View Post
to be fair using your logic you have to consider the fact that Federer won a lot of his slams 2003/2004/2005/2006 years when Nadal was very young...... a few in which Nadal was not around at all
That's why in the first place I only mentioned slams where Nadal was a contender.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:05 AM   #1119
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

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No - I understood your point. It's not that complex, really.
I know - it's an easy concept to grasp. Wasn't talking to you though - a few others in this thread totally missed the point.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:58 AM   #1120
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Default Re: Endless Federer-Nadal debates (WTF vs Olympics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
You guys have totally missed my point.
Jeez.
For the h2h to mean anything, Nadal needed to actually get far enough in those slams I mentioned to stop Federer.
He wasn't able to, Fed leads 17 > 11 and thus the h2h is meaningless.
If Nadal ends up with more slams with Fed, the h2h will be a big deal. Until then, it's not.
Why would it only become important if Nadal has more majors than Roger? I'd argue if Nadal had more majors than Roger, H2H would become less important because, going by history, it would be even more lopsided. I can see the argument that the H2H can be used as a tiebreaker if two players have almost the same number of majors like for Lendl-Connors or Wilander-McEnroe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
Look at it this way: Muzza leads 9-8 in the h2h. He wasn't able to stop Roger from winning any slams. The h2h means almost nothing.
It means nothing because Murray hasn't won anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
Nadal leads 18-10 or whatever it is. He stopped Fed from winning a few slams, but also wasn't able to stop Fed winning a shitload of slams.
Nadal stopped him seven times. And again, Nadal doesn't have a 100% win rate against Federer so to expect him to take most of Roger's majors is just silly – especially when most of Roger's majors came Pre-2008 when Rafa was just a clay guy. If we take it from 2008 onwards, which is the date in your original post so I don't know why you're still asking why Rafa wasn't able to stop him from winning the "shitload of slams" Roger won in 04-07, Roger has since won five majors but Rafa stopped him from winning four times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
If you flip it on its head, Muzza has a winning record against Fedsly. HOWEVER, Roger has won when it mattered, LITERALLY costing Muzzbot 3 slams.
Therefore, for Muzz, the h2h means dick squat, because it didn't gain him slams.
How is this "flipping it on its head"? But anyway, Murray has one measly win more than Federer; Nadal has eight over Roger; big difference. Nadal is also 7-2 (4-0 since 2008) over Roger in majors so Nadal has won his share when it mattered. Using your wording from above – Rafa has literally cost Roger 7 majors – so how does the H2H not become an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice Winner View Post
IThe h2h by itself doesn't mean anything in the GOAT argument until it costs someone slams (or in Fed's case, the overall slam record).
A lopsided H2H becomes an issue when the two people in question are greats of the game. Nadal cost Federer seven majors. Federer cost Nadal two.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:15 AM   #1121
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Default Nadal vs Fed slams won by age comparison

almost even at 26


Nadal

19 1
20 2
21 3
22 6
23
24 9
25 10
26 11
??

Roger Federer
21 1
22 3
23 5
24 8
25 11
26 12
27 15
28 16
29 16
30 17

So if Nadal can successfully recover from his injury, he has a decent chance to overtake Roger. There is no one to challenge him at FO. All he needs if a few other slams. What do you think?
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:16 AM   #1122
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Default Re: Nadal vs Fed slams won by age

You can't really draw accurate comaprisons, because Federer played in a mug era where he had to beat guys like Phillipussy, Rodmug, Hewitt and Mugzalez for slams.
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:18 AM   #1123
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Default Re: Nadal vs Fed slams won by age

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Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
You can't really draw accurate comaprisons, because Federer played in a mug era where he had to beat guys like Phillipussy, Rodmug, Hewitt and Mugzalez for slams.
They slowed down court surfaces which helped Nadal
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:18 AM   #1124
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Default Re: Nadal vs Fed slams won by age

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Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
You can't really draw accurate comaprisons, because Federer played in a mug era where he had to beat guys like Phillipussy, Rodmug, Hewitt and Mugzalez for slams.
And Nadal has had to beat a mug pusher like Pushray
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:24 AM   #1125
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Default Re: Nadal vs Fed slams won by age

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And Nadal has had to beat a mug pusher like Pushray
He never beat him in a slam final, though. But you bring up another valid point, Mandy gifted Olderer 3 slams - if the Scot showed as much balls as he did against Nadal in his USO 2008 match against Olderer in finals, he would be sitting on at least 2 slams by now.
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