Socialism sucks....seriously. - Page 9 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 05-06-2012, 08:01 PM   #121
country flag abraxas21
Registered User
 
abraxas21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 12,580
abraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
As an economics student who's looked quite a bit into the crisis, I can confidently say that it had very little to do with capitalism and everything to do with non-transparent financial instruments and thus a gross misinterpretation of risk combined with poor incentive systems and a faulty way of how credit agencies work. On a free market, this crisis wouldn't have happened.
how come?

on a free market the government would have a limited degree (if any) of intervetion and regulation over the financial market. after all, isn't deregulation and the lack of government intervention one of the main points of a 'free market' economy?

the crisis went on to show the failure of the market to set the porper incentives and asure the transparency of their instruments, as you claim. then again, if the "free market" fails when it comes to settting the proper rules to play ball, it's evident for me that the state should step in and play as referee in the field.
__________________
abraxas21 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 05-06-2012, 08:07 PM   #122
country flag abraxas21
Registered User
 
abraxas21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 12,580
abraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond reputeabraxas21 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
Incorrect. Those with power will always take advantage of those without power no matter how advanced a particular society is. It's a basic survival mechanism to cull the weak. At the end of the day we're still animals - except we're ripping out each other's throat in a more civilized manner.
i actually agree with that.

Quote:
What you suggest is mere wishful thinking rather than reality.
not at all. you seem to believe that i advocate the existance of an ideal trouble-free world but i've never even presented that argument. i simply argued that people have the moral duty to rise up against injustice and history shows that in many ocassions they have.
__________________
abraxas21 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 08:30 PM   #123
country flag Lopez
Registered User
 
Lopez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 27
Posts: 6,878
Lopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond reputeLopez has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
how come?

on a free market the government would have a limited degree (if any) of intervetion and regulation over the financial market. after all, isn't deregulation and the lack of government intervention one of the main points of a 'free market' economy?

the crisis went on to show the failure of the market to set the porper incentives and asure the transparency of their instruments, as you claim. then again, if the "free market" fails when it comes to settting the proper rules to play ball, it's evident for me that the state should step in and play as referee in the field.
Perhaps I misspoke. What I meant is that on an efficient market, this wouldn't have happened. Usually, one of the properties of a free market is efficiency.
__________________
After Nadal beat Monfils at Doha, before AO 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSMnadal View Post
lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
Somewhere out there, there is a homeless person who once took betting advice from GSMnadal
Lopez is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 08:37 PM   #124
country flag scoobs
Anastasia Komananov, KGB
 
scoobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Age: 36
Posts: 53,459
scoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
how come?

on a free market the government would have a limited degree (if any) of intervetion and regulation over the financial market. after all, isn't deregulation and the lack of government intervention one of the main points of a 'free market' economy?

the crisis went on to show the failure of the market to set the porper incentives and asure the transparency of their instruments, as you claim. then again, if the "free market" fails when it comes to settting the proper rules to play ball, it's evident for me that the state should step in and play as referee in the field.
The crisis would still have happened - an unregulated free market combined with the human instincts of greed and over-reach means that bubbles and their bursting are inevitable.

What would have been different in a pure free market situation is that the politicians wouldn't have felt compelled to bail the banks out to protect the entire financial system. The banks would collapsed with all the associated consequences, but it would at least have been free market. Since that level of free market is politically impossible, the governments used taxpayer money (and international borrowing to be repaid by the taxpayer) to prop up the financial system. A few short years later the banks are back to business as usual, huge profits and big salaries for the top managers and the risk takers on the trading floor, while the rest of us pick up the bill and deal with the consequences of the austerity imposed to pay for all the debt we have to repay.
scoobs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 09:17 PM   #125
country flag rocketassist
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,682
rocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Just hope we take a leaf out of the French's book and kick out the worst government I have ever seen since I've been alive at the first time of asking.
rocketassist is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 09:41 PM   #126
country flag Echoes
Registered User
 
Echoes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 1,902
Echoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

And bring on Nigel Farage instead.
Echoes is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 10:30 PM   #127
country flag Echoes
Registered User
 
Echoes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 1,902
Echoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond reputeEchoes has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
i don't think it's fair to say that "capitalists hate local traditions and nations". they just don't normally consider them in their so called technical analysis and choose to focus on the decisions and freedom of the individual in particular. i'd say that in modern times this is a typical behaviour of all right wingers -not just the purely capitalist ones, or libertarians as some call them in the USA- as opposed to left leaning blokes who tend to center their analysis on society in general.

They don't consider them in their analysis. Perhaps as a form of despise? I haven't studied economics but I think I can safely that they're globalist, just like communists (two sides of the same coin). If one nation has a restricting social code and and an expensive workforce, they'll relocate elsewhere, typically in China, nowadays. And they become nomadic predators. Relocation is the typical example of this. Chris Lasch showed that the ideal of Progress brought by the Enlightenment of the 18th century (that liberals/libertarians - which is the same for me - are seeking) despised local particularisms that pre-determined the individuals. Being nomadic/off-ground/citizen of humanity is for them some sort of a liberation from any kinds of determinisms.

I agree with the Ron Paul quote mentioned above about socialists who cannot represent the idea of Revolution. Only I'm not a Revolutionary. The American and French Revolutions carried the fundamentals of liberalism, and were made in blood (mostly the French one).



Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
[...] in most cases, be it in europe or the USA (but more in the USA), the rich end up more protected than the poor. if that's what we understand today for "capitalism system", then it is evidently an idea extracted of the right wing agenda.
In today's world, yes. But I insist, in the 19th century, the liberals were the leftwingers (sort of a Movement, Progress Party) and the conservative, the rightwinger (Order, Reaction Party). Socialists did not want to be involved in their discussions. Perhaps it's because the "Rich" were still the nobiliary aristocracy but I've seen more interesting social theories in the conservative camp of that time than in the liberal camp.

Michéa argued that, in France, the turning point was the Dreyfus affair in the 1890's when the Left defended the innocent Jewish captain while the Right defended the Army. The socialists at first did not wish to be involved in this 'bourgeois' affair but then it became such a huge scandal that out of "common decency", they just couldn't help defending the poor innocent captain. And that's how they started calling themselves the Left and kept on doing so for the whole 20th century. But by the 80's when it became apparent that the communist regime of the USSR was a failure, the Left was back to their roots: Progress and Liberalism.

By the way the term 'liberalism' in the English language is associated with the political 'left', which is quite telling, actually. In the French language, it would rather be associated with the political 'right'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
as for libertarians (or semi-pure capitalists, whichever term you like best), i mostly see them as clueless. i don't think they fully grasp the complexities of the world's markets and how badly things would be if some of their ideas were implemented. i wouldn't tag them as right wingers, though.
I fully agree. And it's safe to say that libertarianism is a UTOPIA ! Just as disconnected from reality as communism was. And that can be why it "never was given a chance".
Echoes is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:00 PM   #128
country flag Gagsquet
Banned!
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Paris
Age: 24
Posts: 6,128
Gagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond reputeGagsquet has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
The crisis would still have happened - an unregulated free market combined with the human instincts of greed and over-reach means that bubbles and their bursting are inevitable.
Partially Wrong. In a total free and unregulated market, the crisis wouldn't have happened. Free and unregulated market = information pure and perfect (3rd condition of the pure and perfect competition). Mostly all the malfunctioning of the current capitalism is linked to the asymmetry of the information. In his book The finance power, André Orléan explained that this asymmetry of the information between economic agent is the core of the capitalism problems because it leads to a "self-referential mimicry". Agent do not copy the other people thinking they are better informed (informational mimicry) but only the trend of the market. This is the kind of comportment which caused the crisis. But considering information pure and perfect is not possible, financial capitalism is doomed to repeated crisis.

Last edited by Gagsquet : 05-06-2012 at 11:07 PM.
Gagsquet is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:36 PM   #129
country flag Sunset of Age
Anathemaniac
 
Sunset of Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The Wall.
Posts: 41,908
Sunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond reputeSunset of Age has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Well, yes and no I think. As I said, at it's core capitalism just means that people can own things. You could just as easily say that this crisis happened under a democratic system and thus democracy is to blame.

This was a bubble, which tend to happen every now and then. The problem with the fixed income market as a whole is that it is HUGE compared to the stock market and yet there are few players. The market is thus not as effective as the stock exchanges, not by a long shot. The bubble was thus inflated to a huge size before it burst.

What actually could have prevented the whole mess would have been credit agencies that actually do their job, so there perhaps a government agency could do a better job since it couldn't be bullied by its customers. In that sense regulation would have improved things in my opinion.

Put it another way: as long as risk is priced properly, everything is ok. Regulation might help, especially in the huge and relatively ineffective fixed income markets.
Well said.
Just a slight addition - it's not just the government agencies or the bankers who are to blame for the mess we're in right now.
A rather large part of the 'common folks' who are now in trouble with their sky rocketing-high mortagages and other loans are to blame themselves as well. Unfortunately they believed in the various hypes that certain markets would never plummet again - the internet bubble, and in my country in particular, the highly misjudged hype of real estate prices to 'never ever' go down again. A massive mistake as it's turning out to be right now. Many households have a horrible debt because of that right now, and... it's getting worse every month. Real estate prices are going down the drain by the minute.

Those with a slight sense of history might remember the notorious 17th century Dutch Tulip Bulbs Mania. Read it, it's kinda funny actually.
It's rather confronting how it resembles the hypes of the current 20-21th centuries.
History repeats, no matter whether it concerns internet hypes, real estate prices or ... tulip bulbs.

This merely to illustrate that a slight bit of governmental regulation on the 'free market' might not be a bad thing at all, even if it's a so-called 'socialist' principle. Unfortunately the institutions who should have done so in my country have been caught napping the past decade or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Allez Hollande!
__________________
"It's getting colder, I'm getting colder, older, it's getting colder...

Am I still here? As one, with The Fear?
Am I still alive? I'm still f*cking ... Here...!"


"The Storm Before The Calm"

Anathema

Into music of the PROG-Dorky-kind? visit my blog or MTF's Prog Rock Thread.

Last edited by Sunset of Age : 05-06-2012 at 11:45 PM.
Sunset of Age is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:59 PM   #130
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,748
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
you are totally wrong, but what's the point in arguing with you on that when you'll never admit to it?
You are totally wrong. Why will you never admit to it?

What are you 8 years old? You seriously think you're making a convincing rational argument here?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
2nd paragraph - "a liberal system" makes no sense. a liberal economic system means absolutely nothing. it could be absolutely anything. however, liberty as a political idea generally stems from the rise of the middle classes and the rise of capitalism. you totally fail to understand the economy in general and capitalism and socialism in particular if you are of the opinion that a capitalist system with certain welfare concessions is more socialist than capitalist. it is truly baffling that you claim that.
Stop embarrassing yourself. If you don't know what liberalism is then stop pretending to know what you're talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
3rd/4th paragraph - demonstrating IS an official, peaceful method of resolving things. it is a key part of any democracy, and to argue otherwise is simply blind. you still haven't answered the question that i asked of you when i said that you yourself had said "there is more to a democratic system than voting every 4 or 5 years". what else is there? surely demonstrating is one thing?
Referendums, local elections, bi-elections, debates, conferences - any of these ring a bell? Again, you should educate yourself on democracy/politics before pretending to know what you're saying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
as regards your final point, the american civil rights movement comes to mind. that wasn't so long ago. blacks could vote at that time. your argument means that you are saying all the people who took part in civil rights demonstrations in the 60s, which led to greater fairness, etc, were in the wrong and were nothing but a bunch of whiners and complainers.

in any event, what is a proven democracy? is it whatever you say it is? is a totalitarian state whatever you define such a state as? is it democratic that when more people vote for one presidential candidate than his opponent, the opponent still gets elected?
Doesn't matter how long ago it was, people protesting in various nations because they do not have democratic means to resolve their issue. Blacks, women, homosexuals not receiving equal rights in society is obviously non democratic. If you don't trust the electoral process in UK, America or any other western country, you should move to a country you do trust. Unless you think every country is unfair in which case you don't trust anyone and you're probably a hopeless case of obsessive paranoia.

You're obviously very sensitive on this protesting issue. Have you been involved in demonstrations yourself? You seem to be trying to convince yourself it was the right thing to do.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 12:03 AM   #131
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,748
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougie View Post
This is the attitude that is so common nowadays, even if it´s a totally ridicilous one. Anyone who even dares to suggest that maybe some more left-wing policies in certain areas might not be so wrong is instantly labeled as someone who supports concentration camps and is a fan of Stalins USSR or whatever. Its not black and white, you know.
If my attitude is "so common nowadays" why are libertarian parties never getting more than 10% in any western election?

The paranoia of liberal Europeans never ceases to amaze.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 12:15 AM   #132
country flag Sri
Registered User
 
Sri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 2,301
Sri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Just hope we take a leaf out of the French's book and kick out the worst government I have ever seen since I've been alive at the first time of asking.
Sarkozy was a joke, but isn't the British economy doing well under Cameron?

Obviously people don't matter and policies do, haven't you had enough during the decade of Labour? What's their solution to the economy? More spending?
__________________
Nadal's arms strong!
Proof: http://i.imgur.com/Qcw2v1Z.jpg
Sri is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 12:30 AM   #133
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,748
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Labour doesn't have a solution. Their departing finance minister practically admitted they would have committed the same austerity as the coalition had they been reelected.

Governments have one of two choices these days:

1. Increase spending until the debt destroys the economy
2. Cut spending and lose the election
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 12:33 AM   #134
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,748
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
And bring on Nigel Farage instead.
This.

Won't happen though. Polls show just as many Lib Dems defecting to Labour as Tories defecting to UKIP.

Ed "The Shred" Miliband will be the next PM.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 01:58 AM   #135
country flag Sri
Registered User
 
Sri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 2,301
Sri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond reputeSri has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
This.

Won't happen though. Polls show just as many Lib Dems defecting to Labour as Tories defecting to UKIP.

Ed "The Shred" Miliband will be the next PM.
That cartoon? Really!?

PS: Don't worry, we've had worse here in India..
__________________
Nadal's arms strong!
Proof: http://i.imgur.com/Qcw2v1Z.jpg
Sri is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios