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Old 05-06-2012, 01:19 AM   #106
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

^^ Interesting comments, Lopez.
Food-for-thought. I won't say I disagree.

Still nothing will stop me from aiding my clients to help them around with their financial problems in this rather SHARK-kind of a society.
Uh yeah, Eat-the-Rich.
That's my job.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:26 AM   #107
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
^^ Interesting comments, Lopez.
Food-for-thought. I won't say I disagree.

Still nothing will stop me from aiding my clients to help them around with their financial problems in this rather SHARK-kind of a society.
Uh yeah, Eat-the-Rich.
That's my job.
I thought you were a biologist or something . Didn't know you were Robin Hood
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lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:33 AM   #108
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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I thought you were a biologist or something . Didn't know you were Robin Hood
Medical Biologist, MSc. obtained in 1986, Utrecht University, NL.
Lawyer, LLM obtained in 2002, Utrecht University Law School, NL.

Robin Hood - ever since my birth.
Or rather - Maid Marian.

No kidding though, my current job is helping out folks who have become totally fucked up in their current financial situation.
That might well explain why I have these so-called 'socialist' tendencies nowadays.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:44 AM   #109
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Medical Biologist, MSc. obtained in 1986, Utrecht University, NL.
Lawyer, LLM obtained in 2002, Utrecht University Law School, NL.

Robin Hood - ever since my birth.
Or rather - Maid Marian.
Career switch, bold move

Anyways I've explained my views about the issue a few pages before. The state should do certain things but then be as small as possible once these things are arranged (education, healthcare, police to name a few).

The problem with high income tax is that it really doesn't even affect the really rich since one can only become rich through capital such as being a successful entrepreneur. Thus, high income taxes actually hit the middle class the most since it makes it difficult to create wealth through work alone and it also dicincentivises pay raises etc...

High capital gains tax is also problematic because capital is one of the building blocks of a nation's GDP. To achieve GDP growth you need growth in capital, human capital or level of technology. High capital gains tax drives capital away from a nation.

There is a strong correlation with many positive effects to a society and the level of economic freedom within that society. I can dig out the information if you'd like. They include things like smaller absolute poverty and higher life expectancy and higher overall happiness IIRC.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:01 AM   #110
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Career switch, bold move
I had to. I was a total failure in medical cancer research, all of my research attempts at getting my PhD were a complete disaster.
Never mind the fact that some 99% of my colleagues at that time ended up being computer programmers anyhows.
A career as a biologist? haha, no way. Too bad nobody tells you so when you're 17 years of age.

Quote:
Anyways I've explained my views about the issue a few pages before. The state should do certain things but then be as small as possible once these things are arranged (education, healthcare, police to name a few).

The problem with high income tax is that it really doesn't even affect the really rich since one can only become rich through capital such as being a successful entrepreneur. Thus, high income taxes actually hit the middle class the most since it makes it difficult to create wealth through work alone and it also dicincentivises pay raises etc...

High capital gains tax is also problematic because capital is one of the building blocks of a nation's GDP. To achieve GDP growth you need growth in capital, human capital or level of technology. High capital gains tax drives capital away from a nation.

There is a strong correlation with many positive effects to a society and the level of economic freedom within that society. I can dig out the information if you'd like. They include things like smaller absolute poverty and higher life expectancy and higher overall happiness IIRC.
Yep, I see your points, and they are true, unfortunately...
Whatever that, it won't help me stop at my attempts to try as much as I can to help the folks who've been a mite lesser lucky with their talents to achieve themselves getting themselves a 'better' living.
It's the only thing I can do.

Funny thing is, my BF comes from a very rich posh family, and his sister is... a spokeslady for the Socialist Party in my country. She feels she just has to.
No wonder we get along rather well.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:32 AM   #111
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
i fully disagree. for starters, it's a moral duty to to rise up to unfairness and injustice and to that regard the people have the power to demand the government for change or even to overthrow the ones in power if their political stances are too far away from the people's basic aspirations.

fortunately history shows us that humanity doesn't share your values. otherwise who knows? europe might still be ruled by feudal kings and your country would still be a british colony....

i might reply to your other post tomorrow
Incorrect. Those with power will always take advantage of those without power no matter how advanced a particular society is. It's a basic survival mechanism to cull the weak. What you suggest is mere wishful thinking rather than reality. At the end of the day we're still animals - except we're ripping out each other's throat in a more civilized manner.
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:51 AM   #112
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

I disagree. When the autocracies do get out of hand, people do decide to act against it and no matter how much stronger the government is, it will be overthrown. Case in point is Libya and Egypt.
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:54 AM   #113
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by zeleni View Post
As some posters have already written, essence is not about names and ready-made ideological concepts, it is about actual situation and government policy in particular case (country) in particular time.

The goal should be to find the right balance between freedom and solidarity. Nordic counties are probably the closest to that, which doesn't mean that their model can be applied successfully everywhere because of cultural differences.

Today it is easy to bash socialism and so with good reason. But I don't think it's fair to forget role of socialism in fight against colonialism and fascism/nazism. Also in some counties socialism (or so-called socialism, as I explained in the first paragraph) gave good results - China before socialism was devastated prey of colonial powers (UK, Japan). Now they are becoming the biggest economy in the world and their people have the highest level of human rights than ever in their very long history (things should always be observed in their context, not in some ideologically imposed artificial context of "universal" human rights).

Also, capitalism apologist seed to forget that numerous failed states in Africa, Latin America and Asia are capitalist countries. They always point on one dozen of richest countries where it is hard to say how much of their wealth is due to capitalism and hard work and how much due to colonialism and plunder.

Things seems to be more gray and blear than apologist of any paper concept (capitalism, socialism) would like to admit.
Very good post.
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Old 05-06-2012, 04:23 PM   #114
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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You should move to a socialist country. No greed, just millions of people starving to death and dissidents tortured in concentration camps. But as long as bankers aren't making millions, that's clearly all that matters.
This is the attitude that is so common nowadays, even if it´s a totally ridicilous one. Anyone who even dares to suggest that maybe some more left-wing policies in certain areas might not be so wrong is instantly labeled as someone who supports concentration camps and is a fan of Stalins USSR or whatever. Its not black and white, you know.

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As an economics student who's looked quite a bit into the crisis, I can confidently say that it had very little to do with capitalism and everything to do with non-transparent financial instruments and thus a gross misinterpretation of risk combined with poor incentive systems and a faulty way of how credit agencies work. On a free market, this crisis wouldn't have happened.

Besides, capitalism is a word often misused. At it's core, it means that people have the right to own property and machines used for production. Almost every country in the world is capitalist.

Now, it's altogether a different question how much a state should be a part of the economy and society and where in the society should the state take part.
All the reasons you listed are completely true, but aren´t those reasons made possible by the extreme form of capitalism? Im not saying it´s the capitalism itself that is to blame, but a capitalist system is the system under which these things got to develop as far as they did. The roots of the crisis go back to the 80´s, when the goverment regulation was lessened, and the argument was exactly the free market. "Let the markets operate, the market will fix itself".

What could have prevented the crsisis would have been exactly that regulation, transparency, investor responsibility etc. It might have prevented that over-aggressive risk taking and bad incentive systems. And Im not talking about communism, but I think its clear that the state needs to play a certain role. Is it an ideal situation? Far form it, but nothing ever is.
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Old 05-06-2012, 05:20 PM   #115
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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And I'm saying this is nothing more than a paranoid accusation. You've still provided no evidence that I've been "swallowing propaganda" when my views contradict almost everything we watch and read in the media.



That IS where you are wrong. A welfare state that only interferes with 50% of the economy is a liberal system. It consists of both capitalist and socialist aspects. I stopped reading and watching British media after calls for nationalizing banks, capping private sector pay and returning to a 1970s labour model where trade unions hold the nation to ransom. This leans far more towards socialism than capitalism.




Like I said (I'm repeating myself over and over again), in a truly democratic society, I will always condemn protesting when people have official peaceful means to resolve issues. Not once have I ever seen a protest in a western nation with rational demands. No matter what the government does, there will always be a minority finding an excuse to complain about something. Peaceful protesting shouldn't be made illegal, but in a proven democratic society I will never respect it.



Because those were NOT proven democratic societies. A system in which certain minorities have no say is not democratic. I would completely condone protesting in Cuba, North Korea, Iran or any society in which totalitarian regime was enforced on the people. Comparing 21st century protests on bankers pay to 19th century fights for black rights is nonsensical.
1st paragraph - if you say so. you are totally wrong, but what's the point in arguing with you on that when you'll never admit to it?

2nd paragraph - "a liberal system" makes no sense. a liberal economic system means absolutely nothing. it could be absolutely anything. however, liberty as a political idea generally stems from the rise of the middle classes and the rise of capitalism. you totally fail to understand the economy in general and capitalism and socialism in particular if you are of the opinion that a capitalist system with certain welfare concessions is more socialist than capitalist. it is truly baffling that you claim that.

3rd/4th paragraph - demonstrating IS an official, peaceful method of resolving things. it is a key part of any democracy, and to argue otherwise is simply blind. you still haven't answered the question that i asked of you when i said that you yourself had said "there is more to a democratic system than voting every 4 or 5 years". what else is there? surely demonstrating is one thing?

as regards your final point, the american civil rights movement comes to mind. that wasn't so long ago. blacks could vote at that time. your argument means that you are saying all the people who took part in civil rights demonstrations in the 60s, which led to greater fairness, etc, were in the wrong and were nothing but a bunch of whiners and complainers.

in any event, what is a proven democracy? is it whatever you say it is? is a totalitarian state whatever you define such a state as? is it democratic that when more people vote for one presidential candidate than his opponent, the opponent still gets elected?
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Old 05-06-2012, 06:58 PM   #116
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Yeah socialism is shit. That's why Francois Hollande is set to become the new president of France
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:07 PM   #117
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

He clearly implied in YOUR country that he was not a socialist. The left liberalized the economy in France under President Mitterrand.

Confirming my assumption that socialism is incompatible with political/philosophical left.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:20 PM   #118
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Yeah socialism is shit. That's why Francois Hollande is set to become the new president of France
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He clearly implied in YOUR country that he was not a socialist. The left liberalized the economy in France under President Mitterrand.

Confirming my assumption that socialism is incompatible with political/philosophical left.
the french socialist party are far from socialist. social democrats, sure. further left-leaning than sarkozy (or the tories, labour, republicans, democrats, etc), sure....but hardly far left firebrands.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:41 PM   #119
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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All the reasons you listed are completely true, but aren´t those reasons made possible by the extreme form of capitalism? Im not saying it´s the capitalism itself that is to blame, but a capitalist system is the system under which these things got to develop as far as they did. The roots of the crisis go back to the 80´s, when the goverment regulation was lessened, and the argument was exactly the free market. "Let the markets operate, the market will fix itself".
Well, yes and no I think. As I said, at it's core capitalism just means that people can own things. You could just as easily say that this crisis happened under a democratic system and thus democracy is to blame.

This was a bubble, which tend to happen every now and then. The problem with the fixed income market as a whole is that it is HUGE compared to the stock market and yet there are few players. The market is thus not as effective as the stock exchanges, not by a long shot. The bubble was thus inflated to a huge size before it burst.

What actually could have prevented the whole mess would have been credit agencies that actually do their job, so there perhaps a government agency could do a better job since it couldn't be bullied by its customers. In that sense regulation would have improved things in my opinion.

Put it another way: as long as risk is priced properly, everything is ok. Regulation might help, especially in the huge and relatively ineffective fixed income markets.

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Yeah socialism is shit. That's why Francois Hollande is set to become the new president of France
As if that's an argument
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lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:41 PM   #120
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Allez Hollande!
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