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Old 05-08-2012, 05:21 AM   #151
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Sri View Post
I'm advising a Singapore based startup as we speak. Here's what I understand happens:

If a technology startup raises more than $100K by any accredited PE firm, the Govt. will provide relief up to $1 million as long as the startup promises to hire locals and maintain a bulk of their operations in Singapore.

Of course can they do better, sure. But compare that to India where the Govt. is finding new ways to tax startups, that's just stupid.
I've heard of that rule but it's not everyday some person comes up with $100k.

Plus I'm pretty sure the $1 million is hung up by more strings than a marionette.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:39 AM   #152
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
i do know what liberalism is. categorising an economic system as "liberal" makes no sense. it could mean practically anything. if anything it has laissez-faire connotations.
On the one hand it makes no sense, on the other you associate it with laissez-faire policy. In other words you still don't know what liberalism is.


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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
here's the thing. debates, conferences and local elections have no direct effect on government policy. referenda are called when parliament calls for them. by-elections are called only when an MP resigns/dies, etc. where the public has a grievance, none of these features of a democracy can have a direct effect on government policy, with the exception of referenda, which in most countries are only called if government decides to call for them. if you are saying that democracy is not purely voting once every 4-5 years, then sure....but in terms of holding government to account and influencing policy, none of the features you mention are very relevant.
So what's your solution? Forget the democratic system, resolve issues through protests. Maybe count the number of people that take to the streets or measure the size of the banners. Better yet, measure the cost of economic disruption.

I can't believe I'm the one defending democracy here. I've always said it's far from perfect but compared to what you're suggesting I'm very glad for the system we live in.


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the argument "if you don't like it, then leave" is the very attitude perpetuated by the ruling classes in order to isolate and ridicule those who want change. people who want change and believe in change should fight for it.
Scary thing is Stalin and Mao uttered very similar words. This is precisely the attitude that incites hate, destruction, insanity and suffering. The day I see people like you "fighting for change" will be the day I finally agree to take to the streets if only to fight you.


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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
it doesn't enter into my head that demonstrating could ever be wrong. as long as people operate within the law, then i don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. i'm not sensitive about it, particularly, i just regard it as being as important a democratic right as the right to vote.
Obviously we strongly disagree here. I'll let protesting be legal but only to uphold the principles of freedom and that's as far as I go.


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supporting ukip says a lot about you. a xenophobic, homophobic, nationalistic, and a home for failed tories and failed chat show hosts is thankfully all that it will ever be.
What's the difference between xenophobic and nationalistic? Or did you run out of cheap false accusations?

No doubt you've presumed I support all of UKIP's policies just because I would vote for them (which I can't because I'm not British). Strange attitude from someone who rants about party manifestos not containing voters' priorities.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:02 PM   #153
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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On the one hand it makes no sense, on the other you associate it with laissez-faire policy. In other words you still don't know what liberalism is.
you describe a social democratic-capitalist economic system as liberal. it is not a term i would ever use to describe an economic system. the word "liberal" when used to do with the economy has laissez-faire connotations. that doesn't mean that someone describing a super-capitalist economy as "liberal" would be making much sense.

as far as not knowing what liberalism is, to be honest, it means different things to different people. the right claims it, the left claims it, and everything in between claims it. i know what my understanding of it is, and i can usually fathom an understanding of it when other people use the word. like i said above, i just wouldn't use it as a label for an economic system.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
So what's your solution? Forget the democratic system, resolve issues through protests. Maybe count the number of people that take to the streets or measure the size of the banners. Better yet, measure the cost of economic disruption.

I can't believe I'm the one defending democracy here. I've always said it's far from perfect but compared to what you're suggesting I'm very glad for the system we live in.
i'm not suggesting anything. i'm not suggesting that protests and demonstrations should have more power. i am merely defending the right of people to protest (although you also concede that it should be allowed) and defending the people who do protest, who you refer to as whiners, malcontents and anarchists. i'm not saying that there aren't some people who regularly protest against everything under the sun, for whom i have little time, but the majority of people on mass protests are people who feel passionately about an issue and wish to raise that and let their feelings be known. demonstrations are a medium through which the average person can show how they feel about something, i'm not saying that they should be more than that.
likewise i wasn't criticising the democratic processes that you mentioned. just stating that demonstrations are somewhat different in how they can affect things.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Scary thing is Stalin and Mao uttered very similar words. This is precisely the attitude that incites hate, destruction, insanity and suffering. The day I see people like you "fighting for change" will be the day I finally agree to take to the streets if only to fight you.
i didn't mean literally. i mean that if people care about something, it is much healthier for a democracy and potentially better for them in general if they pursue an issue through whatever legal means are on offer (such as casting a vote even) rather than shrugging their shoulders and deciding that they can't do anything about the way things are.

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What's the difference between xenophobic and nationalistic? Or did you run out of cheap false accusations?

No doubt you've presumed I support all of UKIP's policies just because I would vote for them (which I can't because I'm not British). Strange attitude from someone who rants about party manifestos not containing voters' priorities.
nationalism isn't necessarily a negative thing and many people claim to be nationalists or nationalistic. xenophobia is a fear/dislike of foreigners, etc and is clearly a negative thing.
i didn't say or think that you supported everything that they stand for. however, i find some of their views so distasteful that i would take a negative view of someone who could overlook those views because they agree with ukip on other matters.

and by the way, im not criticising party manifestos for not including everything. it is impossible to predict what is going to happen over a 4 or 5 year term in office, so as long as a party doesn't go directly against their manifesto, then they can do what they like. they just have to bear in mind that people haven't voted for them on those grounds, and should be held to account and scrutinised more closely in those instances.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:06 PM   #154
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Sarkozy was a joke, but isn't the British economy doing well under Cameron?

Obviously people don't matter and policies do, haven't you had enough during the decade of Labour? What's their solution to the economy? More spending?
Thanks to Cameron's policies, an economy was growing again when he was elected has returned to recession.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:07 PM   #155
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Like they were doing under Brown?

Labour would have thrown money at Greece too, probably even more money.
Keep blaming him for the current government's utter failure while we continue to slide into recession and alienate the working classes.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:13 PM   #156
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

She doesn't want to witness the Cameron's failure anymore.

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Old 05-08-2012, 11:17 PM   #157
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
you describe a social democratic-capitalist economic system as liberal. it is not a term i would ever use to describe an economic system. the word "liberal" when used to do with the economy has laissez-faire connotations. that doesn't mean that someone describing a super-capitalist economy as "liberal" would be making much sense.
Liberalism is centrist policy. It combines aspects of both capitalism and socialism. The fact you associate it with laissez-faire underlines how left-wing you are.

You seem to confuse it with libertarianism, a radically different ideology.


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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
i'm not suggesting anything. i'm not suggesting that protests and demonstrations should have more power. i am merely defending the right of people to protest (although you also concede that it should be allowed) and defending the people who do protest, who you refer to as whiners, malcontents and anarchists. i'm not saying that there aren't some people who regularly protest against everything under the sun, for whom i have little time, but the majority of people on mass protests are people who feel passionately about an issue and wish to raise that and let their feelings be known. demonstrations are a medium through which the average person can show how they feel about something, i'm not saying that they should be more than that.
likewise i wasn't criticising the democratic processes that you mentioned. just stating that demonstrations are somewhat different in how they can affect things.
I never said protesting should be illegal but I'm glad at least I don't have to repeat myself anymore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
i didn't mean literally. i mean that if people care about something, it is much healthier for a democracy and potentially better for them in general if they pursue an issue through whatever legal means are on offer (such as casting a vote even) rather than shrugging their shoulders and deciding that they can't do anything about the way things are.
"Shrugging their shoulders." Yes, that's obviously what I'm suggesting here.

On the other hand, if people are too stupid to use the democratic tools they have on offer, then maybe they should just stick to shoulder shrugging. Better than trying to draw attention to themselves on the streets.


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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
nationalism isn't necessarily a negative thing and many people claim to be nationalists or nationalistic. xenophobia is a fear/dislike of foreigners, etc and is clearly a negative thing.
i didn't say or think that you supported everything that they stand for. however, i find some of their views so distasteful that i would take a negative view of someone who could overlook those views because they agree with ukip on other matters.
Besides wanting to exit the EU (which I don't even support and isn't remotely xenophobic) which policies constitute "xenophobia"? If you think UKIP is distasteful, you should check out the BNP.


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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
and by the way, im not criticising party manifestos for not including everything. it is impossible to predict what is going to happen over a 4 or 5 year term in office, so as long as a party doesn't go directly against their manifesto, then they can do what they like. they just have to bear in mind that people haven't voted for them on those grounds, and should be held to account and scrutinised more closely in those instances.
People have the freedom to scrutinize parties as much as they want but mostly they choose not to. The vast majority of protesters don't even endeavor or consider the possibility. Whether peaceful or not, they would simply rather take to the streets than use official means to scrutinize politics. This is why their actions merit zero respect in proven democratic societies. The thrill of marching and chanting with banners comes just as naturally to people as greed, lust, wrath and other basic animal instincts. No rationality, just pure apathy and self-gratification.

Last edited by Jimnik : 05-08-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:26 PM   #158
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Keep blaming him for the current government's utter failure while we continue to slide into recession and alienate the working classes.
Poor "working classes". Always suffering.

I wonder what constitutes "working class" these days since the definition seems to change every few years. Soon the unemployed will join the club.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:31 AM   #159
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

it's fitting that jimmy, being a yank, is also a chelsea tard.

easily the most disgusting english footie team ever. and that's saying a lot considering most english squads suck
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:44 AM   #160
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Poor "working classes". Always suffering.

I wonder what constitutes "working class" these days since the definition seems to change every few years. Soon the unemployed will join the club.
Working class = average middle class that are always being ripped off by crook governments.

You can't tax enemployed trash because they have nothing to take. You can't tax the super rich because they are too few and too influential. So the final solution is to destroy the average working Joe, by constantly raising interest rates, raising taxes etc. Constantly being taken up the ass by governments who introduce bullshit like carbon tax (while 3rd world countries are free to pollute as they please) is idiotic beyong belief.

Sooner or later once the middle class is totally ruined, the politically correct governments will realize what they've done. But by then it will be too late. In the next few years the world will plunge into a recession that will make the days after WW2 seem like golden age unless drastic measures aren't taken quickly -- and knowning the corrupted governments of today, they won't be.
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:23 AM   #161
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Nice rant.

As a libertarian I certainly agree with the crook government part.
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:25 AM   #162
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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it's fitting that jimmy, being a yank, is also a chelsea tard.

easily the most disgusting english footie team ever. and that's saying a lot considering most english squads suck


Mate, everything you say is a lot.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:13 AM   #163
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Liberalism is centrist policy. It combines aspects of both capitalism and socialism. The fact you associate it with laissez-faire underlines how left-wing you are.
You seem to confuse it with libertarianism, a radically different ideology.
It's depressing to see just how very little historical perspective many people have these days. One really despairs soemtimes.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:36 AM   #164
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Thanks to Cameron's policies, an economy was growing again when he was elected has returned to recession.
Such nonsense. It seems that now they're no longer in power, the left can retreat to their idealist roots where they're most comfortable. A place where there's lots of lovely free money to give to anyone who wants it and a magic button can be pressed that will result in economic growth. In the meantime they can continue the divisive line of trying to get the general public to despise the wealthy in society.

I'm sorry, but if all government spending was truly an "investment" as Labour always claimed, then why did we ever end up with a deficit in the first place? Government has NO MONEY, and if they keep taking money from society in taxes and "investing" it then we're literally going to have nothing left.

I'm so sick of all this claptrap about "austerity isn't working" .....when the only solution proposed by those peddling this lunacy is to SPEND MORE TAXPAYER MONEY - WHICH WOULD FURTHER NECESSITATE AUSTERITY MEASURES. I'm glad this French dude got in, now we can see just how (in)effective his socialist policies are (although i'm guessing he'll probably back down and say Merkel stole his mojo or something).

A reflection of humanity itself, growth will come only as a result of increased confidence. Public spending right now is not going to increase confidence, it'd appear desperate, it'd appear that they've only done it because nothing else appears to be working.

The solution lies in encouraging the private sector - but we're never going to succeed in doing that when some seem so intent on demonising them.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:23 AM   #165
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Default Re: Socialism sucks....seriously.

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Such nonsense. It seems that now they're no longer in power, the left can retreat to their idealist roots where they're most comfortable. A place where there's lots of lovely free money to give to anyone who wants it and a magic button can be pressed that will result in economic growth. In the meantime they can continue the divisive line of trying to get the general public to despise the wealthy in society.

I'm sorry, but if all government spending was truly an "investment" as Labour always claimed, then why did we ever end up with a deficit in the first place? Government has NO MONEY, and if they keep taking money from society in taxes and "investing" it then we're literally going to have nothing left.

I'm so sick of all this claptrap about "austerity isn't working" .....when the only solution proposed by those peddling this lunacy is to SPEND MORE TAXPAYER MONEY - WHICH WOULD FURTHER NECESSITATE AUSTERITY MEASURES. I'm glad this French dude got in, now we can see just how (in)effective his socialist policies are (although i'm guessing he'll probably back down and say Merkel stole his mojo or something).

A reflection of humanity itself, growth will come only as a result of increased confidence. Public spending right now is not going to increase confidence, it'd appear desperate, it'd appear that they've only done it because nothing else appears to be working.

The solution lies in encouraging the private sector - but we're never going to succeed in doing that when some seem so intent on demonising them.
It's not nonsense, it is fact. Go look at the GDP figures for 2010. You will see the economy was growing. Now it is not. The right love to retreat from facts that are inconvenient, however, that is not my problem

Austerity is necessary - AFTER growth has been restored. Austerity in a weak, non-growing economy turns a recession into a depression as it sucks what little confidence and demand there is from the system. We need to do what Lamont and Clark did in the 90s - policies for growth and THEN squeeze spending when growth returns. It worked then. It does work. The right refuse to believe the economic evidence and insist on hiding behind austerity dogma.

Last edited by scoobs : 05-09-2012 at 09:58 PM.
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