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Old 04-10-2012, 10:30 AM   #31
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

Honestly this homophobia thing is very irrational but so are many phobias. Some homophobes are definitely closet gays. Nothing strange about that. It's very common psychological defense mechanism. Like many body builders often were weak and even bullied in school and sometimes ended up overcompensating big time. I think us men often work that way. Insecurity--> enormous overcompensation. It's true that men who are really secure about themselves would never have to insult or fear homosexuals.

I think another reason some straight men are uncomfortable is that some gay people are very "in your face" like they sort of everyday have to remind everyone that they are gay and find reasons for people to dislike them and seek confrontation almost like they want it. You see it on internet all the time too. I think the majority of men (at least in Sweden) have a big "whatever" feel and think that every mans sexuality is his own business just like his religion and other personal things.

but yeah to illustrate that last point in a very funny way:

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Old 04-10-2012, 11:31 AM   #32
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

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I think another reason some straight men are uncomfortable is that some gay people are very "in your face" like they sort of everyday have to remind everyone that they are gay and find reasons for people to dislike them and seek confrontation almost like they want it. You see it on internet all the time too. I think the majority of men (at least in Sweden) have a big "whatever" feel and think that every mans sexuality is his own business just like his religion and other personal things.
That's really just a stereotype, and it's an insulting one because saying some gays are "in your face" all the time is something that can be reversed easily. Heterosexuality is in my face constantly, always in my face, always being pushed and promoted, yet gay people are not saying keep that out of my face, nor why do straight people flaunt their sexuality, nor they need to constantly do this and do that. No-one insults straight people for doing the SAME EXACT things gay people do and get insulted for. It's bullshit.

Also, it's an attack of fem gay men. That they're fem because they choose to be, and choose to try to make the lives of insecure straights harder. That's bullshit, too. Some gay men simply are more feminine. That's just what it is. They are not so concerned with the lives of homophobes that they are going to choose to be overly feminine-acting. Since fem gays are the ones who are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to get gay bashed.

How can you remind someone that you're gay unless you actually tell them? You can't see gay. So really, that statement is certain straight people, with privilege, making things about them. And being completely one-track minded. People who think this way don't accept gay people. It's the whole "I have no problem if you're gay UNLESS I am confronted with it" (ie. as long as it's closeted it's fine) That's not acceptance. It's tolerance. A lot of people seek to think the two are the same and they're not.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:38 AM   #33
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

Again, to make it clear, tolerance and acceptance are two different things. Acceptance means accepting things as real and accepting that real thing as OK when it it's presence.

Tolerance is accepting that real thing as OK, as long as you don't have to be confronted with that real thing. As long as that real thing doesn't bother you or affect your sensibilities. It's conditional acceptance, acceptance on your own accord. Real acceptance means accepting something without conditions.

I hate the message of tolerance. You either accept something as OK or you don't. Especially when it comes to human beings, in particular, immutable traits. I don't want to be tolerated like I am something that should be kept at a distance, like I am mistrusted. Respecting me and my community means accepting me and my community. And that only goes for me. But for anything, for everyone who deserve it. Accepting them for who they are is respecting them and their humanity.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:42 AM   #34
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

I also have to say, this study is NOT saying all homophobes are gay. It's saying that being gay and in the closet, being someone with same-sex desires, whether conscious or subconscious, AND being self-hating and in the closet, makes one likely to be homophobic. It just so happens that homophobes=gay as well, it's somewhat coincidence, because given the fact it's self-hating gays who tend to be homophobic, well, secure heterosexuals are not homophobes, so it works both ways. It's causation, it's 1+1=2. Being gay/bisexual/etc. + growing up in religious/socially conservative households = self hating, homophobic gays. So it's really a pretty interesting thing in that there are a lot of factors involved.

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Old 04-10-2012, 01:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

It seems as if every time I see a thread created by you, it's either about yourself or homophobia. Why?
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

Because you're not looking hard enough.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:14 AM   #37
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
That's really just a stereotype, and it's an insulting one because saying some gays are "in your face" all the time is something that can be reversed easily. Heterosexuality is in my face constantly, always in my face, always being pushed and promoted, yet gay people are not saying keep that out of my face, nor why do straight people flaunt their sexuality, nor they need to constantly do this and do that. No-one insults straight people for doing the SAME EXACT things gay people do and get insulted for. It's bullshit.

Also, it's an attack of fem gay men. That they're fem because they choose to be, and choose to try to make the lives of insecure straights harder. That's bullshit, too. Some gay men simply are more feminine. That's just what it is. They are not so concerned with the lives of homophobes that they are going to choose to be overly feminine-acting. Since fem gays are the ones who are SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to get gay bashed.

How can you remind someone that you're gay unless you actually tell them? You can't see gay. So really, that statement is certain straight people, with privilege, making things about them. And being completely one-track minded. People who think this way don't accept gay people. It's the whole "I have no problem if you're gay UNLESS I am confronted with it" (ie. as long as it's closeted it's fine) That's not acceptance. It's tolerance. A lot of people seek to think the two are the same and they're not.
That was not the point. For example, if a vegan approaches me when I'm eating a burger and starts doing a long rant about how meat is murder and that I'm a bad person I might politely ask him to mind his own business. Does that mean i don't tolerate or accept vegans? Nope. I have no problem at all with their lifestyle, them as a group and I would fully support their rights. But he/she has no right to push his/her lifestyle upon me if I don't want to. If a black person acts like a total d-bag on the bus annoying passengers and I walk up to him and ask him to calm down and take a seat does that mean I'm a racist? hell no. I'd do the same to anyone acting that way regardless of skin color.

Point is that just because you are homosexual you don't get a free card to act however you like and then call homophobia on any reaction. Normal social rules still apply. Heterosexuals have a big amount of douchebags, I'm 100% sure homosexuals have a slight percentage of douchebags too. Those douchebags are a reason behind much of the hate. Miniorities suffer worse when people generalize and that's wrong but it's not gonna change anytime soon. It still doesn't mean that all gays are innocent victims. Tolerance and acceptance goes both ways.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:42 AM   #38
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

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That was not the point. For example, if a vegan approaches me when I'm eating a burger and starts doing a long rant about how meat is murder and that I'm a bad person I might politely ask him to mind his own business. Does that mean i don't tolerate or accept vegans? Nope. I have no problem at all with their lifestyle, them as a group and I would fully support their rights. But he/she has no right to push his/her lifestyle upon me if I don't want to. If a black person acts like a total d-bag on the bus annoying passengers and I walk up to him and ask him to calm down and take a seat does that mean I'm a racist? hell no. I'd do the same to anyone acting that way regardless of skin color.
Yeah, I understand your vegan analogy, but what you said is still a stereotype. It's a stereotype that gay people, and really, feminine gay men, INTENTIONALLY flaunt their sexuality, which is false. Veganism is a moral choice and gay is a sexual orientation, so the two aren't comparable and gay isn't a lifestyle. You can't force a sexual orientation on someone. Unless someone is forcing you to watch and/or participate in gay sex, or someone is literally going up to random individuals and saying "hey, I'm gay" just to say they're gay, than no, no-one is forcing sexuality.

Criticizing someone on the basis of their behavior is one thing. But criticizing someone on the basis of their behavior and connecting that to who they are as an individual, is a different thing entirely.

Quote:
Point is that just because you are homosexual you don't get a free card to act however you like and then call homophobia on any reaction. Normal social rules still apply.
Social rules and expectations are different for minorities of any group. So that doesn't really apply here, because you're telling gay people to act like heterosexuals. That's what "normal social rules" mean. But we're not heterosexuals. So telling us to "act" a certain way to fit into a society that, in many ways, shows they don't want us around, isn't going to happen. The gay community, we're not idiots, we know how to handle ourselves like reasonable human beings, and that's all it should come down to.

Quote:
Heterosexuals have a big amount of douchebags, I'm 100% sure homosexuals have a slight percentage of douchebags too. Those douchebags are a reason behind much of the hate.
True, but the problem again is that gay people are judged based on the actions of few AND these actions are always attributed to sexuality rather than character. The reason behind hate is ignorance and/or fear. Because there are many heterosexual douchebags, true, and we don't see gay people hating all straights, or telling straight people how to act. None of that is going on.

Quote:
It still doesn't mean that all gays are innocent victims. Tolerance and acceptance goes both ways.
Tolerance and acceptance doesn't go both ways in every circumstances. Wrong is wrong. Right is right. Homophobia is wrong. Homophobia isn't to be tolerated and accepted. "Social norms" that are inherently discriminatory aren't to be tolerated and accepted. Not all gays are innocent victims but every single gay person alive IS a victim of homophobia to some extent, as are ALL straight people. Homophobia affects us all to some degree. This is the reality. What needs to be done is judge people on the basis of character and not sexuality. Do that, and most of these schisms between the gay and straight community, between straight gay rights supporters and anti-gay straights, between anti-gays and gays, etc. will all have solutions. In fact, they wouldn't be issues in the first place.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:32 AM   #39
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

Filo, slightly off topic, but do you think Morrissey is gay? He's never clearly said it but there's been a lot of debate.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:45 AM   #40
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

He's bisexual/open sexually.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:47 AM   #41
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

We all know how the sayings go when it comes to male musicians. You haven't really made it big time until you get a cock in your mouth.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:50 AM   #42
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

Makes sense. For some reason it completely slipped my mind that there are more than 2 sexualities.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:53 AM   #43
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

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Makes sense. For some reason it completely slipped my mind that there are more than 2 sexualities.
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Old 04-11-2012, 05:12 AM   #44
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

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Again, to make it clear, tolerance and acceptance are two different things. Acceptance means accepting things as real and accepting that real thing as OK when it it's presence.

Tolerance is accepting that real thing as OK, as long as you don't have to be confronted with that real thing. As long as that real thing doesn't bother you or affect your sensibilities. It's conditional acceptance, acceptance on your own accord. Real acceptance means accepting something without conditions.

I hate the message of tolerance. You either accept something as OK or you don't. Especially when it comes to human beings, in particular, immutable traits. I don't want to be tolerated like I am something that should be kept at a distance, like I am mistrusted. Respecting me and my community means accepting me and my community. And that only goes for me. But for anything, for everyone who deserve it. Accepting them for who they are is respecting them and their humanity.
I wish I could good-rep you, but it appears i must spread some reputation around before giving you more. I'm right there with you, Filo.
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Old 04-12-2012, 11:56 AM   #45
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Default Re: Study: Homophobia is linked to gay desires.

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I wish I could good-rep you, but it appears i must spread some reputation around before giving you more. I'm right there with you, Filo.
Thank you, I........we appreciate it!
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