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Old 06-25-2012, 11:55 PM   #121
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

I love the idea that there are less non-Muslim Palestinians now because of the Israelis rather than bigotry and violence directed at them by radical Muslims there.

It's the same situation in Lebanon right? The Muslims there have nothing to do with the greatly diminished (and soon enough extinct) Christian population.
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:29 AM   #122
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
there's no such thing as a unique fair an balanced view.

what peribsen probably assumes (well, it's really what i assume anyway) is that your sources of information are already focused on right wing outlets so it's only fair to encourage you to read more left leaning publications in order to balance things out, so to speak.

in an ideal world, an informed person would try to approach to objetivity (objetivity in itself impossible) by trying to read all types of news sources, regardless of their editorial views.
Neither you nor peribsen have admitted to peeking at right wing publications to my knowledge. But peribsen tells me that the content of the recommended left leaning paper is clearly the truth. How does one know things like that?
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:38 AM   #123
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

Plenty of left-leaning, right-leaning and even centrist-leaning media out there. With the internet it's easy to read stories from multiple sources. But at the end of the day, who has time to read multiple articles on the same topic? Unless it's a story that really interests me, one source is adequate and if you keep an open mind you should be able to read between the biased opinions.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:32 AM   #124
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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Neither you nor peribsen have admitted to peeking at right wing publications to my knowledge.
well, can't speak for peribsen obviously but at least i can say that i certainly do. most of the mass media outlets in my country have a rigth wing agenda and i do frequent it pretty much everyday
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:52 PM   #125
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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You don't seem to see any irony at all in the fact that you ask me to read an openly left-leaning publication for a fair and balanced view?
First of, Haaretz can only be described as leftist in a country as strongly schewed to the right such as today's Israel is (wasn't always, Israel is the product of the Labor party, almost all the great names in the making of Israel were secular liberal leftists; Likud and Shas came decades later). In any other Western country (bar the US, for much of the same reason), it would be described as liberal centre, or at most left-of-centre (something similar to Spain's El País).

But the elephant in this kitchen is not the above, it's a second issue:

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not about right and left, it's about Israelis and Palestinians. That should be obvious, yet you clearly fail to see it. A major Israeli newspaper, no matter what it's ideological leaning, is first and foremost Israeli. Truly wanting to hear the other side of the issue would demand your reading what the Palestinians themselves are saying. But seeing your reaction to the suggestion that you take up a newspaper from the very same side you are always defending (Israel), only because it is less radical in its views and is often capable of portraying a fairer interpretation of Palestinian opinions and demands, simply leaves no room for expecting you to actually go to Palestinian sources. The only irony here is that you are so biased on this, so bigoted, that you feel threatened by the more nuanced opinions of moderates on your own 'side', and react like if they were the 'other side'.

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I think you are falling into the same abyss as abraxas here, by assuming correct opinions and your opinions are one and the same.
Or could it be that maybe we make the effort (imperfectly, but at least we try) to balance arguments from all sides, while you seem to go pale just at the idea of reading different opinions?

That is not merely rethoric in my case. I started life in a very conservative, monarchist, deeply religious setting. Right-wingers for me are not distant, menacing figures out to cheat the working classes, they are my grand-parents, parents, uncles, most of my sisters, cousins, and old school friends. I don't have to make a huge effort to understand what they are thinking, it comes quite naturally, I've been there. No, I do not believe they think that way because they are greedy monsters. And no, union trust leaders and Marxist ideologues are hardly 'my people'.

Reading, living and meeting people. That is what made me start drifting away from the right towards the centre at first, and then to the moderate left. I have never been Marxist, but I'm not prejudiced enough to fail to see that Marxism does have its valid arguments, and that many of the finest people I have ever come across are or had been Marxist (no, they don't have horns nor adore the devil, and I believe they never have served roasted child in any of the dinners I've shared with them... or at least I hope so!).

But my own history is irrelevant here. I only bring it up because, you are right, there is indeed irony in all of this, and it is that, if I hadn't made the effort to explore what others were thinking, I'd be far closer to at least some of your own ideas. So that I find it quite funny that you choose to attack me for hearing only 'my own propaganda'.

Of course, it's perfectly possible that you have also changed your own views during your lifetime. But somehow I doubt it. People with the capacity to change may or may not do so -it's perfectly acceptable to fail to be convinced by the ideas of others, no sense in 'changing' just for the heck of it-. But those people would never react to the possibility of finding out what others are saying in the way you do. Whether one takes that road or doesn't, for ideas to evolve curiosity must prevail over prejudice. And, sorry, but until proven wrong, I think I have grounds to believe that that is not your case. Would be delighted to be proven wrong.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:14 PM   #126
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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Or could it be that maybe we make the effort (imperfectly, but at least we try) to balance arguments from all sides, while you seem to go pale just at the idea of reading different opinions?


Reading, living and meeting people. That is what made me start drifting away from the right towards the centre at first, and then to the moderate left. I have never been Marxist, but I'm not prejudiced enough to fail to see that Marxism does have its valid arguments, and that many of the finest people I have ever come across are or had been Marxist


Of course, it's perfectly possible that you have also changed your own views during your lifetime. But somehow I doubt it. People with the capacity to change may or may not do so -it's perfectly acceptable to fail to be convinced by the ideas of others, no sense in 'changing' just for the heck of it-. But those people would never react to the possibility of finding out what others are saying in the way you do. Whether one takes that road or doesn't, for ideas to evolve curiosity must prevail over prejudice. And, sorry, but until proven wrong, I think I have grounds to believe that that is not your case. Would be delighted to be proven wrong.
Well if you want to go that route - i.e., reading, living and meeting people. Although why you want to get personal on an anonymous internet forum beats me. But your own autobiography has forced my hand.

I am fairly certain I have more university degrees than you, and am doubly certain I have seen a lot more of the world than you, including ten years of first hand experience in one of the last remnants of Communism, working with Party officials. So why don't I tell you that you have to read more, travel more, meet more people, live more, if you want to broaden your horizons?
Because I am not a pompous prick who believes that everyone will think like me if they just open their minds to the truth as I perceive it, that's why.

So that just about leaves you no option but to declare that all those degrees and 50 years of exposure to an assortment of other cultures were wasted on me, because I clearly didn't learn anything.

You seem to be stating that your personal change is a sign of your enlightement, but at the same time suggest that if you had started out as a Marxist and ended up as a deeply conservative monarchist, then that would not be enlightenment at all, that would just be wrong.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:03 PM   #127
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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Well if you want to go that route - i.e., reading, living and meeting people. Although why you want to get personal on an anonymous internet forum beats me. But your own autobiography has forced my hand.

I am fairly certain I have more university degrees than you, and am doubly certain I have seen a lot more of the world than you, including ten years of first hand experience in one of the last remnants of Communism, working with Party officials. So why don't I tell you that you have to read more, travel more, meet more people, live more, if you want to broaden your horizons?
Because I am not a pompous prick who believes that everyone will think like me if they just open their minds to the truth as I perceive it, that's why.

So that just about leaves you no option but to declare that all those degrees and 50 years of exposure to an assortment of other cultures were wasted on me, because I clearly didn't learn anything.
Much of the sort of answer I expected from you. You've done it again, just as you did the first time we met. You start getting personal with whoever doesn't agree with you (how he hasn't travelled farther than Barcelona, how he only listens to his own propaganda), and then, when that person answers about his real life to prove you wrong (that yes he has travelled -not necessarily more than you, this isn't a mileage contest, but certainly way beyond the town next door-, or that yes, he has looked at things from different perspectives -which doesn't mean he is right, nobody owns the truth, but fact is there is a contrast between that and your apparent allergy to open a newspaper that may tell a different story from what you want to hear-), you attack him for giving himself airs. Same old trick. Really my fault, for taking you seriously.

A pity, though. If all you say about yourself is true (no reason to think it isn't), you could enrich the thread by drawing on your experiences, maybe there could be some really interesting conversations here. Saddly, you prefer to make fun of others and end up getting personal. A real pity.

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You seem to be stating that your personal change is a sign of your enlightement, but at the same time suggest that if you had started out as a Marxist and ended up as a deeply conservative monarchist, then that would not be enlightenment at all, that would just be wrong.
Talk of missing the point. In bold is the part where you always go wrong,attributing others twice as much as they have actually said. I was talking about curiosity trumping prejudice. You are going off in a wild goose chase about whether the road always has to be in a particular direction, which is something I certainly hadn't even mentioned (in fact, I had said that there isn't any obligation to take the road at all, unless one stays put because of prejudice). It seems you have a knack for classifying people into subtypes (if someone is pro-Palestinian, then he must be leftist, Marxist, anti-American, proabortion and obsessed with PC, or viceversa). Truth is, many people are far more varied and surprising.

And all this, why? Because you refuse to have a look for yourself at different arguments? Now just who is so haughtily convinced that he is in possesion of absolute truth?

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Old 06-26-2012, 10:34 PM   #128
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

You keep insisting on telling me I refuse to look at different arguments, but just can't seem to consider the possibility that I did, and came to a conclusion that differs from yours. Why can you not accept that I looked at different arguments before reaching my conclusion? All I can think of is that it is still stuck in your head that if I don't think like you, then I can't have considered the arguments. There is no point in continuing going round in this circle.

And how you can say I made it personal is beyond me. Your whole approach has been about how I will change if I do more of what you do. I have no interest in suggesting something for you to read. You can do that for yourself. Where one has been and who one has talked to was something you introduced, not me.

You ask for me to draw on my experiences and enrich the thread. Well, after 10 years in Cuba I found that most Cubans were almost incapable of doing something for themselves and had given up hope for a decent life. Fidel was so afraid of the people taking an initiative to improve their lot, that every time a sensible idea came along it was squashed. When the rural farmers came to town with their horses and carts to provide the locals with a way to get around town, they were branded "Little Rockefellers'' by Fidel and forbidden to help solve a transportation problem that the Marxists had caused. It was of no importance to him that there was no other way for people to get to work. Of course, that mattered little to him anyway, because he knew that at the places of work there was nothing to do, there were no tools.
It goes on and on, so I concluded that Marxism is one of the most inhumane ideologies ever concocted. It can only be practiced by total oppression. Why not everybody has seen this is beyond me. I guess they haven't looked at the different arguments.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:57 PM   #129
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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You keep insisting on telling me I refuse to look at different arguments, but just can't seem to consider the possibility that I did, and came to a conclusion that differs from yours. Why can you not accept that I looked at different arguments before reaching my conclusion?
And why, pray, do you not just say so? And discuss the evidence that made you think as you do, instead of double-guessing others and going on (and on, and on, and on) about propaganda?

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All I can think of is that it is still stuck in your head that if I don't think like you, then I can't have considered the arguments. There is no point in continuing going round in this circle.
Actually, what I face is somebody who is always certain that whatever I think is due to believing my own propaganda. I agree about the circle, but from my side it would seem it's you who keep drawing it.

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And how you can say I made it personal is beyond me.


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I have no interest in suggesting something for you to read.
A pity. Some of the best things I have read have been suggested to me by others. That includes others of all sizes, shapes and colours. People should try to share whatever they may find worthy of being considered in the debate.

Look here, I'm far from perfect. But I would much prefer to discuss the issues and cut out the catfights. I'm sure you share that view.

It's very late, I'm off to bed. Goodnight.


It's very late. I'm off to bed.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:24 PM   #130
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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You ask for me to draw on my experiences and enrich the thread. Well, after 10 years in Cuba I found that most Cubans were almost incapable of doing something for themselves and had given up hope for a decent life. Fidel was so afraid of the people taking an initiative to improve their lot, that every time a sensible idea came along it was squashed. When the rural farmers came to town with their horses and carts to provide the locals with a way to get around town, they were branded "Little Rockefellers'' by Fidel and forbidden to help solve a transportation problem that the Marxists had caused. It was of no importance to him that there was no other way for people to get to work. Of course, that mattered little to him anyway, because he knew that at the places of work there was nothing to do, there were no tools.
It goes on and on, so I concluded that Marxism is one of the most inhumane ideologies ever concocted. It can only be practiced by total oppression. Why not everybody has seen this is beyond me. I guess they haven't looked at the different arguments.
Sorry, I answered before you added tis paragraph.

I've given up on Cuba (meaning the system, not the country and people of course, whose plight will always be very relevant, particularly for a Spaniard). It did take me a while, but there it is. It's sad, because I still believe that the revolution there did have it's strong points in the beginning, and that some of it's ideas still hold water. But I simply can't swallow the ideological sclerosis of it all. Any system that requires the same small group of people to hold on to power for over half a century is deeply sick. Ironically, the Castro's own personal success -their longevity in power- is the surest symptom that the system has failed. A political system that is incapable of renewing it's leadership and give way to another generation, after more than 60 years, is a corpse, and if they really have found no one they can trust, it means that it has also failed ideologically.

Quite another thing is whether I fear or not what may come after it all ends. With all its problems, Cuba does have a public health and education network that is worthy of being preserved (and heavily invested on, to save it from its present ruinous state). If US capitalism is simply copied in Cuba, the country will work better in many ways, but the people will suffer. And that would indeed by a pity.

Just one other thing: I would replace the word Marxism in your text for Communism. The latter has failed, totally, completely... and fortunately. The former still can be useful, not as a political system, but at least as one intelligent tool (among others) to analyze society. People whom I certainly find worthy of being read, like Hobsbawm, keep saying so(*). And in the present crisis of capitalism, who is to blame them.

(* There I go again, saying who should be read!!!)
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:55 AM   #131
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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Quite another thing is whether I fear or not what may come after it all ends. With all its problems, Cuba does have a public health and education network that is worthy of being preserved (and heavily invested on, to save it from its present ruinous state). If US capitalism is simply copied in Cuba, the country will work better in many ways, but the people will suffer. And that would indeed by a pity.
The public health system, of which I have far too much personal experience, is one big horror. How could one have an education network (?) worthy of preservation when there are virtually no books in the country and citizens are denied newspapers and the internet? I would have thought that this denial of access to other views would horrify you. I think you try to differentiate between the idea and the reality, blaming the ruinous state on something other than the system itself. But I think the two are inseparable. Cuba did nothing good. The Communist system would not allow it.

I am afraid I come across this perception time and time again. "They have a good health and education system.'' That is a deception that so many people are willing to accept. The Cuban medical treatment that is available is much more discriminatory than in the US, but in Cuba it is based on Party affiliation, not ability to pay.

And for some reason you said that if US capitalism is introduced in Cuba, the people will suffer. They have suffered for over 50 years now, so I doubt they consider the risk of suffering to be a deterrent.
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:27 AM   #132
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

What I love most about the "national health care" debate is that the same people bitch about HMO's and don't realize that basically every proposal when it comes down to it is an even more bloated form of that bureaucracy with even less choice and long waits. There's a reason that the best doctors in Canada for instance come to the US.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:54 PM   #133
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not about right and left, it's about Israelis and Palestinians. That should be obvious, yet you clearly fail to see it.
That is not obvious at all. If it was just about the Israelis and Palestinians, as you say, then they would not even necessarily be taking part. More accurately, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is ''between'' Israelis and Palestinians, not ''about'' Israelis and Palestinians. That makes as much sense as saying WWII was about Germans and Allies.
But this still begs the question of what the conflict is actually about. I don't think I myself have ever considered it to be ''about'' right and left, but curiously enough, the leftist movements of the world seem to think it is, and have made the Palestinians a symbol of their cause. But I haven't seen the flotilla to Syria set sail yet. Or the caravan to Tibet, etc.

So it seems to me the leftist movements must be more anti-Israeli than pro the poor, oppressed Palestinians, to be so selective. They seem to sub-consciously want their conceived conflict between right and left to be about Israelis and Palestinians, which may be why you phrased it that way.

For myself, I have never thought it was about right and left, but about religion, like most conflicts.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:27 PM   #134
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

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But this still begs the question of what the conflict is actually about. I don't think I myself have ever considered it to be ''about'' right and left, but curiously enough, the leftist movements of the world seem to think it is, and have made the Palestinians a symbol of their cause. But I haven't seen the flotilla to Syria set sail yet. Or the caravan to Tibet, etc.
give the syria conflict a bit more time to unfold and you're gonna see just that. after all, the israeli-palestinian conflict has had a head start. i think tibet already is a big issue for the leftist movement, with dozens of groups focusing on tibet-related issues. the only reason you haven't seen anything close to the gaza-ships move is the distance to travel and the terrain.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:56 PM   #135
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Default Re: German Nobel Prize winner deemed "persona non grata" by Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
give the syria conflict a bit more time to unfold and you're gonna see just that..
What kinds of groups would organize the flotillas to Syria?

Toronto held its gay Pride parade last week, biggest in the world I think, with 1 million people on the main street ready to party and have fun. But for the last few years the parade has been hi-jacked by the leftist 'Queers Against Israeli Apartheid'' demanding to march and ruining the spirit of the parade. Whatever one thinks of so-called Israeli Apartheid, it is hardly relevant to a gay pride parade celebrating tolerance. Worse that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that tolerates gays, while the marchers openly support Palestine and Iran, where gays are likely to be killed. Such is the hatred of Israel that they will fawn over people and even governments who would not think twice of killing them.

But they always get their way from the, probably, leftist event committee. I would like to see a group called "Queers against Islamic Homophobia'' ask for permission. But no doubt they would be refused on the grounds of being offensive to some people.

But that is the way it is. Now the United Church of Canada is attempting to organize a boycott of Israeli goods across Canada. You would think a Christian organization might be interested in aiding persecuted Christians around the world, but no, there is no chance for anti-Israeli rhetoric there. They should be taxed.
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Last edited by buddyholly : 07-06-2012 at 07:10 PM.
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