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Nadal in 2 78 41.49%
Nadal in 3 46 24.47%
Federer in 2 35 18.62%
Federer in 3 29 15.43%
Voters: 188. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-17-2012, 08:29 AM   #136
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

6-0, 6-4 to Nadal
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:29 AM   #137
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

I've said it all before, but I'll try to sum it up again for anyone who has not had the opportunity to read.

In a match up between these 2 players:

Slower/higher bouncing playing conditions generally favor Rafael Nadal as it allows him to get to most balls and causes Federer to play higher risk attacking tennis in order to hit winners.

Faster/lower bouncing playing conditions generally favor Roger Federer as it allows his service and attacking game to produce winners without a high degree of risk (he doesn't have hit riskier flatter shots near the lines).

Their last two meetings are indicative of this. Nadal won the 2012 AO semifinal in the slow chilly nightime conditions at Rod Laver in 4 sets where Federer hit risky flat shot unforced errors into the net time and time again, especially as the balls fluffed up, while Federer demolished Nadal at the lower bouncing indoor courts at the WTF, serving well and attacking from inside the baseline making Nadal appear slow and weak.

So the edge has to go with Nadal on the slow playing Indian Wells courts. Federer's confidence in winning 37 out of his last 39 matches and tougher recent matches might help him make it close. But unless Nadal's performance is sub-par and/or Federer's performance is exceptional, Nadal has to always be the favorite to win against Federer at this tournament.

Can there be exceptions? Sure. The margins are not that great between them if one player has an off day and/or the other player is exceptional. Federer came from 2 sets down to beat Nadal in 5 sets at slow Miami 2005 when Nadal was 19 and he beat Nadal on clay twice out of 14 tournaments. Nadal came from behind to beat Federer in 3 sets at a faster Dubai 2006 when Federer made some questionable mental decisions in the last 2 sets on approach shots and volleys allowing Nadal to make excellent passing shots in crucial moments.

The H2H is quite skewed (also in majors) because Federer and Nadal have played many more matches in slower conditions, because generally, Nadal is extremely adept in them, and Federer is still excellent enough vs. everyone else to go deep enough to face Nadal. The most excellent example providing evidence of this is at Roland Garros. The Clay King has an incredible 45-1 match record there, where his only loss was in 2009 to Robin Soderling. Federer has 1 win there in 2009 over Soderling, but 4 finals and 1 semifinal loss to Nadal. So 5 of the 8 H2H major wins for Nadal are at Roland Garros and 2 at the medium-slow Rod Laver.

The reverse is not true. Federer is extremely adept in faster and especially low bouncing conditions, but Nadal is generally not good enough to go deep enough in those conditions to face Federer and thus they have rarely played against each other in those conditions. They've played 4 times in those conditions indoors due primarily due to the forced format of the Year End Championships. At the US Open, Federer has an incredible 61-5 (non-Qualifier) record including 5 consecutive wins, where conditions are generally more suited to him. But Nadal never met Federer there, with a 34-8 record, losing to other adept faster condition players, it has been his poorest major. Nadal's exception in that major was in 2010 where his only top 10 opponent prior to the final was a fellow clay courter, Verdasco. But he also had his best serving performance by far, sailing by Youzhny in 3 sets in the semis, and then defeating Djokovic in the Final who was coming off a grueling come from behind 5 set win over Federer where Djokovic fended off match points to win.

Each one usually defeats the other in their preferred conditions.
It's all in the historical record.

Respectfully,
masterclass
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:36 AM   #138
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say, Nadal in 3.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:57 AM   #139
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

If the Saturday weather is as predicted, they won't play until Sunday. It will be interesting to see how the cool weather will affect playing conditions.

But with no major changes in conditions, I think Mr. Nadal in 3, with Federer starting well as usual with confidence to win the first set, but Nadal adjusting and winning the next two; second set close, maybe a tiebreaker to Nadal, and the 3rd set, Nadal in dominant fashion.

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Old 03-17-2012, 09:00 AM   #140
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Paul Annacone simple has no idea.

His game is still the same after many years.Nadal could even predict his every shots.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:01 AM   #141
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
I've said it all before, but I'll try to sum it up again for anyone who has not had the opportunity to read.

In a match up between these 2 players:

Slower/higher bouncing playing conditions generally favor Rafael Nadal as it allows him to get to most balls and causes Federer to play higher risk attacking tennis in order to hit winners.

Faster/lower bouncing playing conditions generally favor Roger Federer as it allows his service and attacking game to produce winners without a high degree of risk (he doesn't have hit riskier flatter shots near the lines).

Their last two meetings are indicative of this. Nadal won the 2012 AO semifinal in the slow chilly nightime conditions at Rod Laver in 4 sets where Federer hit risky flat shot unforced errors into the net time and time again, especially as the balls fluffed up, while Federer demolished Nadal at the lower bouncing indoor courts at the WTF, serving well and attacking from inside the baseline making Nadal appear slow and weak.

So the edge has to go with Nadal on the slow playing Indian Wells courts. Federer's confidence in winning 37 out of his last 39 matches and tougher recent matches might help him make it close. But unless Nadal's performance is sub-par and/or Federer's performance is exceptional, Nadal has to always be the favorite to win against Federer at this tournament.

Can there be exceptions? Sure. The margins are not that great between them if one player has an off day and/or the other player is exceptional. Federer came from 2 sets down to beat Nadal in 5 sets at slow Miami 2005 when Nadal was 19 and he beat Nadal on clay twice out of 14 tournaments. Nadal came from behind to beat Federer in 3 sets at a faster Dubai 2006 when Federer made some questionable mental decisions in the last 2 sets on approach shots and volleys allowing Nadal to make excellent passing shots in crucial moments.

The H2H is quite skewed (also in majors) because Federer and Nadal have played many more matches in slower conditions, because generally, Nadal is extremely adept in them, and Federer is still excellent enough vs. everyone else to go deep enough to face Nadal. The most excellent example providing evidence of this is at Roland Garros. The Clay King has an incredible 45-1 match record there, where his only loss was in 2009 to Robin Soderling. Federer has 1 win there in 2009 over Soderling, but 4 finals and 1 semifinal loss to Nadal. So 5 of the 8 H2H major wins for Nadal are at Roland Garros and 2 at the medium-slow Rod Laver.

The reverse is not true. Federer is extremely adept in faster and especially low bouncing conditions, but Nadal is generally not good enough to go deep enough in those conditions to face Federer and thus they have rarely played against each other in those conditions. They've played 4 times in those conditions indoors due primarily due to the forced format of the Year End Championships. At the US Open, Federer has an incredible 61-5 (non-Qualifier) record including 5 consecutive wins, where conditions are generally more suited to him. But Nadal never met Federer there, with a 34-8 record, losing to other adept faster condition players, it has been his poorest major. Nadal's exception in that major was in 2010 where his only top 10 opponent prior to the final was a fellow clay courter, Verdasco. But he also had his best serving performance by far, sailing by Youzhny in 3 sets in the semis, and then defeating Djokovic in the Final who was coming off a grueling come from behind 5 set win over Federer where Djokovic fended off match points to win.

Each one usually defeats the other in their preferred conditions.
It's all in the historical record.

Respectfully,
masterclass
1. plexicusion is a low bounce surface and medium fast, masterclass.....it played even faster in 2009......nadal can beat fed anywhere and he proved it......

2. london world tour finals is a dead slow surface with low bounce.....not a fast court.....the surface being slower, allows fed time to place his shots with precision and move a tired nadal around.....nadal is just too spent by the time of november for the indoor season......otherwise he would have found a way for indoors as well.....

3. federer would find it even more tougher at us open because those courts have more bounce and nadal's top spin would be jumping off the surface with some speed.....fed will be forced to play attacking tennis almost every game and that is not what something he enjoys.....

as a matter of fact they faced off once on the exact same decoturf in dubai 2006 which nadal took in two comfortable sets after losing the first set ad nadal was just 19 then......so i don't think the problem is surface.....the problem is with fed's attitude to not try something outside his comfort zone......he seems to be incapable of doing that.....
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:02 AM   #142
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeandlonely View Post
The most torture part is that Federer will give us hope during the match
This.

Rafa is the heavy favourite on these courts... If Roger serves well he might sneak a set. He'll then proceed to choke every chance he gets and Rafa will moonball him to death.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:30 AM   #143
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Quote:
Originally Posted by masterclass View Post
I've said it all before, but I'll try to sum it up again for anyone who has not had the opportunity to read.

In a match up between these 2 players:

Slower/higher bouncing playing conditions generally favor Rafael Nadal as it allows him to get to most balls and causes Federer to play higher risk attacking tennis in order to hit winners.

Faster/lower bouncing playing conditions generally favor Roger Federer as it allows his service and attacking game to produce winners without a high degree of risk (he doesn't have hit riskier flatter shots near the lines).

Their last two meetings are indicative of this. Nadal won the 2012 AO semifinal in the slow chilly nightime conditions at Rod Laver in 4 sets where Federer hit risky flat shot unforced errors into the net time and time again, especially as the balls fluffed up, while Federer demolished Nadal at the lower bouncing indoor courts at the WTF, serving well and attacking from inside the baseline making Nadal appear slow and weak.

So the edge has to go with Nadal on the slow playing Indian Wells courts. Federer's confidence in winning 37 out of his last 39 matches and tougher recent matches might help him make it close. But unless Nadal's performance is sub-par and/or Federer's performance is exceptional, Nadal has to always be the favorite to win against Federer at this tournament.

Can there be exceptions? Sure. The margins are not that great between them if one player has an off day and/or the other player is exceptional. Federer came from 2 sets down to beat Nadal in 5 sets at slow Miami 2005 when Nadal was 19 and he beat Nadal on clay twice out of 14 tournaments. Nadal came from behind to beat Federer in 3 sets at a faster Dubai 2006 when Federer made some questionable mental decisions in the last 2 sets on approach shots and volleys allowing Nadal to make excellent passing shots in crucial moments.

The H2H is quite skewed (also in majors) because Federer and Nadal have played many more matches in slower conditions, because generally, Nadal is extremely adept in them, and Federer is still excellent enough vs. everyone else to go deep enough to face Nadal. The most excellent example providing evidence of this is at Roland Garros. The Clay King has an incredible 45-1 match record there, where his only loss was in 2009 to Robin Soderling. Federer has 1 win there in 2009 over Soderling, but 4 finals and 1 semifinal loss to Nadal. So 5 of the 8 H2H major wins for Nadal are at Roland Garros and 2 at the medium-slow Rod Laver.

The reverse is not true. Federer is extremely adept in faster and especially low bouncing conditions, but Nadal is generally not good enough to go deep enough in those conditions to face Federer and thus they have rarely played against each other in those conditions. They've played 4 times in those conditions indoors due primarily due to the forced format of the Year End Championships. At the US Open, Federer has an incredible 61-5 (non-Qualifier) record including 5 consecutive wins, where conditions are generally more suited to him. But Nadal never met Federer there, with a 34-8 record, losing to other adept faster condition players, it has been his poorest major. Nadal's exception in that major was in 2010 where his only top 10 opponent prior to the final was a fellow clay courter, Verdasco. But he also had his best serving performance by far, sailing by Youzhny in 3 sets in the semis, and then defeating Djokovic in the Final who was coming off a grueling come from behind 5 set win over Federer where Djokovic fended off match points to win.

Each one usually defeats the other in their preferred conditions.
It's all in the historical record.

Respectfully,
masterclass
Interesting points as usual masterclass. I was noticing that in the first 6 months of the year when conditions are generally slower and higher bouncing (slow HC/clay) H2H is 17-3 in Rafa's favour.

In the last 6 months (faster, lower bouncing courts) the H2H shifts to 6-1 in Fed's favour.

Matchup and surfaces issues.

I know this will be explained by certain Rafa fans just saying that Rafa is too tired at the end of the season etc. etc.
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Once upon a time there was a myth about strong and weak eras. On this glorious day the clownery was eventually unmasked: 30 y.o. past-prime daddy Fed became #1 once again in the supposed strong "Spartan" era with his rivals at their peak.
And they all lived happily ever after.
Long live King Federer!


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Old 03-17-2012, 09:34 AM   #144
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer



How this match will look like, do we really need it to be played? Just show a rerun and have a nice turkey dinner with eachother
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:38 AM   #145
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Ajde Rafa. Destroy old complex again and again and again until the final end.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:47 AM   #146
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Nadal in 3, something like 7-6, 4-6, 6-3.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:51 AM   #147
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Nadal just owns Fed anywhere but indoors.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:54 AM   #148
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Federer to bend over in 2 tight sets. Easy cash.
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:05 AM   #149
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Start da Game View Post
1. plexicusion is a low bounce surface and medium fast, masterclass.....it played even faster in 2009......nadal can beat fed anywhere and he proved it......

2. london world tour finals is a dead slow surface with low bounce.....not a fast court.....the surface being slower, allows fed time to place his shots with precision and move a tired nadal around.....nadal is just too spent by the time of november for the indoor season......otherwise he would have found a way for indoors as well.....

3. federer would find it even more tougher at us open because those courts have more bounce and nadal's top spin would be jumping off the surface with some speed.....fed will be forced to play attacking tennis almost every game and that is not what something he enjoys.....

as a matter of fact they faced off once on the exact same decoturf in dubai 2006 which nadal took in two comfortable sets after losing the first set ad nadal was just 19 then......so i don't think the problem is surface.....the problem is with fed's attitude to not try something outside his comfort zone......he seems to be incapable of doing that.....
Afternoon general,

I respectfully disagree with your #1 analysis. The Plexicushion surface as they have managed it, generally plays medium and is a higher bouncing court than the US Open for example. But it plays faster during a hot day, and plays particular slow in cool nighttime conditions. Also, it's not only the court. You have to watch how the balls fluffed up significantly after 2-3 games there to see how the chosen balls are reacting to the surface.

Generally agree with #2, except for the tiredness part. I don't know about dead slow, but certainly nowhere near fast.

#3 isn't generally true. The US Open has been well acknowledged as the fastest playing major (once Wimbledon slowed down with higher bounces), and the bounces are not generally high there, I would say they are medium bounce, not as low as a standard grass court. Your supposition (since they have never met) flies in the face of reality where Federer won 5 consecutive championships there and Nadal couldn't go deep enough to even have a chance at facing him during that time.

#4 at Dubai is simply one of the rare exceptions to the rule, just as Federer has managed to beat Nadal on clay 2 out of 14 matches and once at slow Miami when Nadal was only 19. In Dubai 2006, Federer easily won the first set, then made some questionable mental decisions on key points when approaching and volleying in the second and third sets that allowed Nadal to make some excellent passing shots, so Federer simply didn't play as well as Nadal there, even though conditions favored him.

But in any event, I hope we can agree to respectfully disagree

Respectfully,
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Old 03-17-2012, 10:12 AM   #150
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Default Re: WWW Indian Wells SF: Nadal vs Federer

i dont mind nadal beating rog

i mind him taking 1 minute between points because that is cheating

i mind uncle phony coaching him during matches
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