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Old 11-10-2014, 08:14 PM   #1
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Default Appeals method reform

I'm copy-pasing here what's my idea for a more sound way to manage the whole appeal thing as as it is right now I think it's ridiculous.

we take 20 random users (not mods) that have been active in the forum in the last two months and we get them to vote for each appeal that is submitted. each month we change the 20 users, users will have like 10 days to vote, after that the majority of votes decides if the appeal has been successfull.
no more appeal mods, no more drama, I don't see what's the point to appeal to people that have been given you the infractions in the first place, sure now you get one infraction each time and other mods can't be against it but if the other mods have been giving you other infractions in the past I don't see why on earth they would be be willing to make a stand for you.

pros: as said no more drama, no more conspiracies, no more suspects that a user has been target by one or more mods, the turn-over of the 20 regular users each month and the fact that they are drawn randomly guarantees for a complete transparency of the whole thing which is a big deal. I can see a lot of debates and cotroversies dropping.
attention whores will stop bitching about every single infraction given to them (me included) and not given to other users as they are going to have to accept the juries verdict, there's no 20 guys each time can plot against them every time.
plus I can't think of many other pros that I can elaborate if people are interested in this idea.

cons: each red can be appealed so the 20 users will have some work to do but the 10 days span of time and the fact that there's 20 of them doesn't make it a big deal so this is actually not even a big cons.

If new evidence surfaces on a past appeal, the appeal thread will be bumped and the new (so the importance of changing them) elected users will re-vote again if such evidence is considered crucial.
I'm opening a thread about it to hear what other users think abuot this proposal if you don't mind.

Last edited by motorhead : 11-10-2014 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 11-10-2014, 08:18 PM   #2
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Default Appeal method reform proposal (update: chicken inside)

Since not too many of you read the Feedback, Suggestions & Questions section I'm here to bring to your attention this idea for a better and more clear forum.

Last edited by motorhead : 11-13-2014 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 11-11-2014, 12:59 AM   #3
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Default Re: Appeals method reform

I don't believe in randomly generated groups of posters. How about this:



Everyone, who has more than 10,000 posts*, has automatically reading (and voting) privilege on the Appeals Subforum. These are established posters. I believe every major fan base will have enough of own people among them, so diversity is secured or better said biases are suppressed.

These posters can discuss and vote in all threads within the subforum. However, it is not obligatory. Once a thread is opened, the yes/no poll is set up for 3-5-7 days depending on the type of infraction. Tied voting is resolved by the courtesy policy, i.e. appeal is found successful.

Also, a poster whose infraction is being discussed, has an access to the thread with posting privileges to defend his case and provide everyone with information required.


What I like about this approach is that these 10k+ posters are given some power. Dedication of the core should be appreciated. As a matter of fact, this helps to not lose those valuable people. I think that disturbing elements among them are pure outliers. It shouldn't be difficult to implement either - create the new subforum and grant posting rights individually.





*this rule doesn't apply to moderators/administrators, who are ideally recruited from posters whose biases are minimal and dedication to the forum maximal.

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Old 11-11-2014, 01:21 AM   #4
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Default Re: Appeals method reform

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlier View Post
I don't believe in randomly generated groups of posters. How about this:



Everyone, who has more than 10,000 posts*, has automatically reading (and voting) privilege on the Appeals Subforum. These are established posters. I believe every major fan base will have enough of own people among them, so diversity is secured or better said biases are suppressed.

These posters can discuss and vote in all threads within the subforum. However, it is not obligatory. Once a thread is opened, the yes/no poll is set up for 3-5-7 days depending on the type of infraction. Tied voting is resolved by the courtesy policy, i.e. appeal is found successful.

Also, a poster whose infraction is being discussed, has an access to the thread with posting privileges to defend his case and provide everyone with information required.


What I like about this approach is that these 10k+ posters are given some power. Dedication of the core should be appreciated. As a matter of fact, this helps to not lose those valuable people. I think that disturbing elements among them are pure outliers. It shouldn't be difficult to implement either - create the new subforum and grant posting rights individually.





*this rule doesn't apply to moderators/administrators, who are ideally recruited from posters whose biases are minimal and dedication to the forum maximal.
this are very good point you are making and you've perfectly described what I had in mind.
I'd probably still lean toward the randomly generated groups, I'll elaborate about it tomorrow but even the 10k posters is 100 times better than the current system so thanks for your imput.
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Old 11-11-2014, 11:10 AM   #5
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Default Re: Appeals method reform

What I don't like about your suggestion:


-I think it's darn useful to have an appeal moderator (How about ombudsman instead? Better aura...). This person only decides which case is valid. Since people are biased, there should be two ombudsmen, while the second one is to be contacted when the first one is not convinced about validity of your case, i.e. ombudsmen or appeal moderators of first and second instance.

The first one makes notes about cases found invalid (nickname and infraction discussed; NO need to justify own decisions, because time), so the second one makes sure they've gone through the first instance and don't waste time on an appeal which is just being discussed. The first ombudsman has to explicit (!) with a keyword that he's unsatisfied with validity, so user knows he can contact the second guy.

And why to have an ombudsman? I don't know the traffic of appeals, but my guess is it's high (5+ a day?) and posters would appeal every infraction they get if there's no middle man authority. Too much cases for voters is not too good either if we want them to take it seriously and ideally familiarize themselves thoroughly with cases.

-Changing groups every month is too much effort. Nothing is as easy as grant those rights to everyone who reaches a number of posts.

-Mods should be still able to vote and discuss, because unlike 10k+ posters, they see all posts, even the deleted ones, which they can repost. Sure, conflict of interests, but they form minority of electorate within my system.




My impression so far is that MTF is pretty transparent and generally so much better run than TF it makes me wonder how both of these boards can be under the same umbrella. I mean, I got infractions here from some dilettantes too (imo all 4 of them are unfair bar the last one), but in comparison with TF, I (feel that I) can question their validity and obtain a reaction to my claims. On TF, they banned me for saying NID, telling facts about somatropin and asking whether dyke is exclusively homophobic term. There is very limited possibility to question warnings and they don't respond to ban appeals at all. Now I'm apparently permabanned.

I guess a goal here is to attract as many active users as possible. Clicking users generate $$ + they need to like the forum environment to spend money on premium accounts etc. I think that men tend to require transparency and yet looser rules more than women who have an inclination for establishing very strict authorities of centralized power. This is how I explain the intention behind differences between TF and MTF. (There are men and women on both sites, I just feel we got more testosterone here.)

Last edited by User ID 91753 : 11-11-2014 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 11-11-2014, 11:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: Appeals method reform

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlier View Post
I don't know the traffic of appeals, but my guess is it's high (5+ a day?) and posters would appeal every infraction they get if there's no middle man authority. Too much cases for voters is not too good either if we want them to take it seriously and ideally familiarize oneself thoroughly with cases.
Luckily, your guess is way off the mark. I've got around 10 appeals in two months' time:

http://www.menstennisforums.com/show...8&postcount=19
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Old 11-12-2014, 04:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

mugs this is important
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

MTF political apathy. You can't fight it.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

And yet an opportunity to brand 30 other people on MTF an "arseclown" receives overwhelming interest.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

this is really depressing as this reform could really end all the drama with mods and there would be a much more fair and balanced mods/users cohabitation yet users seem not to be giving a shit. then you you go the ask mod thread and everyone is crying (me included) for a more unbiased 'justice' system.
don't get what it takes to spend 2 minutes, read that thread, possibly give your opinions and eventually we could get this to a vote. a lot of ridiculous red infractions would be spared, I got a red and several months out because I was joking with another user and mods though I really wished him death. this kind of missjudgments wouldn't exhist with that system.

Last edited by motorhead : 11-12-2014 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 11-12-2014, 08:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

To be honest I think the factions that exist on MTF would still make this create controversy. I mean, take 20 random users and the likelihood is the majority are Federer fans, so when it comes to issues of people being banned for trolling GM then there will still be room, justified or otherwise, for complaint about bias. Transparency of the system would be good but I think people don't want to be held accountable for their decisions so will try and back away from making decisions if they are part of the 20. People can see being a moderator is often a thankless task - I don't know ins and outs of many individual cases but I see Litotes and Slasher getting criticised and I'm sure many MTF members don't want a part of that - especially because with random draws then they will be accountable for fewer decisions and therefore each one they make will become proportionately bigger for their own reputation. I wait to see how Pablo and Kowchi will get on. They certainly seem like different characters and to be honest I find them to be a bit more laid-back - more like Sham Kay in that sense but I'm sure they'll get their fair share of criticism which again, would show random users there is a lot to be lost for taking an active part in the decision making. And sure if you have 20 users then that should be shared around a bit but what if several decide to shirk the responsibility?

I mean, I'm not against your idea as a whole and these are just some ideas from the top of my head but I'm not sure I know enough about the system as a whole to fairly assess this.

A final point, with 20 random users deciding different cases there will probably be less consistency in decision making than there is now.
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Old 11-12-2014, 08:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

By the way, sorry for the structure of my last post. I sort of just wrote it down as it came to me so it hasn't been rearranged into a particularly decipherable piece of writing
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Old 11-12-2014, 08:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

I OBJECT! I DONNO WHAT IT IS! BUT I DON"T LIKE IT! AND I SHALL MAKE WAR WITH YOU!

Man , this is MEN tennis forum. With MEN inside(gays included, just because you think you are fairy, doesn't mean you should act like a nanny. Altho, we all know those crap-fo-brains doodes regardless and sexual innuendo god bless their souls), meaning, we are ONLY good when consuming alcohol and discussing boobs and bums(again ^)
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Old 11-12-2014, 08:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

@underspin
I don't see the problem with the higher share of Fed fan base, I'm a Fed tard myself, do you really think I'd screw a guy like GSMnadal for joking with another user telling him friendly death jokes? a guy like Freakyman's reported me like dozens of times for jokes a like saying I'd carry a knife to his match against another user, now Shamy Kay didn't infracted me for that but that played a part (by his own admission) in a later infraction that I received. Sure I'd be tempted to get rid of clowns like rutinos arcos but just like the mods we are supposed to be as unbiased as possible with the BIG difference that 20 people trying to be unbiased are undoubtedly better than one person (allegedly) trying to be unbiased.
as for me I'd be glad to contibute to have a better messageboard, if better decision had been taken we would still have popular users that are now in permaban so I wouldn't back off from a very simply task like expressing 5 or 6 votes in the month I'm elected to be part of the jury.
Slasher is getting criticised for the ridiculous amount of poor decision he's taking not to mention the fact that he's been deleting hundreds of posts just because he doesn't like them or expose his poor knowledge on certain matters (see the epic fail concerning law examples - actually you can't see it because he deleted everything).
Actually Litotes looks like a good mod and I don't recall him being criticised as much as Slasher, not even remotely. I think the majority of people in here think Slasher is a very poor mod.
Sham Kay was supposed to be laid-back, I got infracted like there's no tomorrow though.

I don't get the less consistency in decision thing as less consistency is better than very poor decisions, I'm no expert but I guess your criticism could be addressed to the whole american trial by jury system, I think if they can live with that we too can.

Last edited by motorhead : 11-12-2014 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 11-12-2014, 08:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Appeal method reform proposal

Quote:
Originally Posted by underspin View Post
By the way, sorry for the structure of my last post. I sort of just wrote it down as it came to me so it hasn't been rearranged into a particularly decipherable piece of writing
no prob, the structure of my posts is awful and I find being away from MTF has noticeably worsened my english
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