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Old 03-12-2012, 12:39 AM   #16
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
Well, if someone serves at 62% first serve, wins 75% of first serve points, and wins 42% of second serve points, it may be beneficial for him to perhaps go for more on a 2nd serve. This of course is purely mathematical and does not take into account mentality, which is the #1 thing in the game of tennis. Basically, it all comes down to how confident is Player X in hitting a 2nd serve like a first serve, and especially on a big point? Most times, a guy will roll in a 2nd serve and rely on his ground game
Agreed on all counts. In the end it's all down to mentality. What is funny is that you see more double faults on key points when players are trying to play it safe rather than when going for it, because the first kind happens when players are tight, and players only go fo big seconds on important points when they're feeling very confident.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: A question about second serves

By the way the pointed I wanted to make is that even if you discount mental issues, outside of a few freak cases players are not better off hitting two first serves.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:44 AM   #18
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by alter ego View Post

Sampras' 2nd serve is so fucking overrated here it's not even funny.
Carrer wise for Sampras: points won behind the 1st serve 81%, behind his 2nd 53%. Sampras is not even in the top 10 of points won behind the 2nd serve.
sampras' 2nd serve was totally clutch in the crucial stages of the biggest matches. that's how you measure true greatness -- when it matters most and when the chips were down.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:50 AM   #19
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Default Re: A question about second serves

A player like Federer probably doesn't need it, as he has one of the best 2nd serves on tour, but maybe someone like Berdych or Tsonga can pull it off.

But, as mentioned before, to do it constantly might seriously injury your shoulder over a prolonged period of time.
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:24 AM   #20
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Default Re: A question about second serves

Today when he was serving for the match, at deuce Raonic hit a first serve that was called an ace, but then Berlocq challenged and it was actually out. Raonic then hit his second serve 138 mph for an ace . Then he hit a first serve ace on MP. He was up a double-break at that point though and I guess he wasn't worried about it.
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:57 AM   #21
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by alter ego View Post

Sampras' 2nd serve is so fucking overrated here it's not even funny.
Carrer wise for Sampras: points won behind the 1st serve 81%, behind his 2nd 53%. Sampras is not even in the top 10 of points won behind the 2nd serve.
51% on second serve is brilliant, since Sampras was a clown as soon as an extended rally started.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #22
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Default Re: A question about second serves

Ivanisevic sometimes hit 200+ kph 2nd serve on break points, you never knew what his crazy head will decide.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by jonas View Post
Wasn't Pim-Pim hitting his 2nd (almost) as hard as his 1st? Calculated risk, he called it I think.
Not exactly, he was hitting 2nd as other players' 1st serve - around 200 km/h, which is 20-30 km/h slower than his normal 1st serve
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: A question about second serves

Ferrer is a pointless example when he wins 6-2, 6-2. I love risky 2nd serves, they help especially in tie-breaks, guys like Sampras, Ivanisevic or Rusedski who won plenty of them always tried to risk 2nd serves even facing set point at 5:6 (30-40) or 5:6 in the tie-break.

Currently Isner has the most risky second serve and his tie-break record is impressive as well.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by Voo de Mar View Post
Ferrer is a pointless example when he wins 6-2, 6-2. I love risky 2nd serves, they help especially in tie-breaks, guys like Sampras, Ivanisevic or Rusedski who won plenty of them always tried to risk 2nd serves even facing set point at 5:6 (30-40) or 5:6 in the tie-break.

Currently Isner has the most risky second serve and his tie-break record is impressive as well.
Tsonga did it a couple of times against Murray in Queen's final. I remeber he hit an 136mph 2 serve in the tiebreak. He also saved some break points with huge 2nd serves.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:15 AM   #26
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
The only guy I recall whose 2nd serve was as close to his 1st as imaginable was Pete Sampras.
it's not at all confirmed by the stats of points won on serve : he's one of the best servers ever for the % of points won on first serve (over 80%) but quite average for points won on second serve (around 50%), a difference of 30% points won is a very big difference hence I can't imagine his second serve was really nearly as good as his first one !

Sometimes probably he hit a great second serve then started the legend and legends are what stays in people's minds
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:18 AM   #27
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by jonas View Post
Wasn't Pim-Pim hitting his 2nd (almost) as hard as his 1st? Calculated risk, he called it I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zeza9uvscI

He wrote about it in his blog aswell. I think a lot of player would profit from a statistical analysis of their game. Particularly regarding second serves.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:20 AM   #28
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by alter ego View Post
The usual suspects: Federer, Nadal, Roddick, Isner.
Also Agassi, Courier, even Chang I think.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:23 AM   #29
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
But if your serve is not so good, maybe take a little off the first serve, hit it at 80% and get in a high % and rely on your baseline game. That's what Nadal did early in his career when his serve was shit, and still does at to some extent
This year Nadal is so far at 71% first serve percentage, better than ever (and still 74% points won on first serve, one of his best ratios)

As far as funny stats are concerned, this year Federer is so far at 63% points won on second serve
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:25 AM   #30
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Default Re: A question about second serves

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Also Agassi, Courier, even Chang I think.
Chang is at 52%, Courrier at 53% (same as Sampras), Agassi is at 54% though.
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