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Old 03-02-2012, 10:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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Originally Posted by green25814 View Post
Only in terms of not sleeping with them anymore. I've stayed friends with quite a few ex-partners. It depends on what kind of a person you are. Having a sexual 'relationship' for me is akin to having a friend who you sleep with. So basically its twice as rewarding as a normal relationship. Its definitely worth it dude. You are missing out bigtime, but thats just my opinion.
I've had sex with friends too. My main best friend, Marty, we have had sex, not too long ago in fact, like 1.5 years ago. But the thing is, I admit I'm attracted to him, he's cute and I like him. It's not something we gloss over, he's attracted to me. When that line is crossed, then the line has been crossed. The only way to un-do having sex with a friend is not being friends with that person. Other than that, it's basically resisting the urge. It's understanding you want to fuck with that person but intentionally setting up a boundary for whatever reason. That's why friends-with-benefits situations virtually never work, because you're basically not allowing yourself to do what is natural, which is pursue someone you're attracted to, and not only that, you have close, personal contact with that individual. And you can't or won't pursue..............that's where things go wrong. Eventually, that pressure gets to you. So if someone is going to have sex with a friend, it's best to just keep it 100% real and not have any pretenses on the relationship at all. When you start distancing the sexual aspect of your friendship from everything else then you're not keeping it real. Sex either is or isn't part of the relationship, and on the table.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:15 PM   #32
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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I've had sex with friends too. My main best friend, Marty, we have had sex, not too long ago in fact, like 1.5 years ago. But the thing is, I admit I'm attracted to him, he's cute and I like him. It's not something we gloss over, he's attracted to me. When that line is crossed, then the line has been crossed. The only way to un-do having sex with a friend is not being friends with that person. Other than that, it's basically resisting the urge. It's understanding you want to fuck with that person but intentionally setting up a boundary for whatever reason. That's why friends-with-benefits situations virtually never work, because you're basically not allowing yourself to do what is natural, which is pursue someone you're attracted to, and not only that, you have close, personal contact with that individual. And you can't or won't pursue..............that's where things go wrong. Eventually, that pressure gets to you. So if someone is going to have sex with a friend, it's best to just keep it 100% real and not have any pretenses on the relationship at all. When you start distancing the sexual aspect of your friendship from everything else then you're not keeping it real. Sex either is or isn't part of the relationship, and on the table.
You've got it the wrong way round, I was saying for me an actual relationship IS a 'friend with benefits'. Thats exactly what a healthy relationship should be. If you connect with someone emotionally, and are also attracted to them, thats awesome, not bad. I'm confused by this idea of yours that a friend is something totally separate from a sexual partner. When people talk about having a long-term relationship, these are the things its gonna involve.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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You've got it the wrong way round, I was saying for me an actual relationship IS a 'friend with benefits'.
I understood what you were trying to say, at least I thought I did...............personally, I think friends with benefits is friends with benefits. I don't consider that a relationship. It's a friend you have sex with. That's different than settling down with one person for life. Even then, friends with benefits, when you have sex with a friend, that line cannot be uncrossed.

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Thats exactly what a healthy relationship should be. If you connect with someone emotionally, and are also attracted to them, thats awesome, not bad.
It is awesome, but the question is the parameters of the relationship. Emotional and sexual attraction with someone is obviously a great thing, but taking the next step with that person and going from friend to fuck buddy or friend to relationship is a big step and changes the course of the entire relationship.

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I'm confused by this idea of yours that a friend is something totally separate from a sexual partner.
The way I see it, sex is the ultimately thing. It's THE deciding factor. It's the #1 aspect of the entire package. When you fuck with someone, it's not just a friend anymore. When you fuck with someone you feel romantic attraction towards, then it's not just casual fun sex with a friend, it's deeper than that and there are deeper connections and emotions now involved. Now you're in FWB zone at the very least. Because now the situation isn't platonic. It's then about attraction, and you can't turn off your attraction to someone. You have to control it, but it never goes away. That's the danger about crossing the line, when you cross it, what happens when one person tries to move the line back to "friend" rather than "friends with benefits"? Resentment? Jealousy? General disappointment? What is one persons' line is at friends, and one is at friends with benefits, or even at committed relationship? What if that person becomes hooked? There are all sorts of potential dilemmas that are opened up in fucking with a friend. That's why parameters have to be SHARED AND SET BY BOTH PARTIES INVOLVED before engaging in intercourse with that friend, so there are no loose ends, or potential drama and confusion from either party.

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When people talk about having a long-term relationship, these are the things its gonna involve.
Again, it's all about what an individual defines the relationship. Is it a no-strings FWB deal or an actual "you're my #1" relationship. It's all about where the goalposts are. And sex, and everything revolving around that sex, is in my eyes, the ultimate decider of this.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:30 PM   #34
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

I think we see things differently because by your own admission you don't do 'relationships'. If I'm going to be in an actual relationship with a girl, then I need to connect with her emotionally. Sex is great, but I don't need to be in a relationship for that. Sex is kinda secondary here (I know that sounds odd coming from a guy) because if I'm attracted to a girl but find her annoying to talk to, I'm obviously not going to bother with a relationship. One night stand all the way. But if I'm looking for a relationship, the main thing is going to be 'do I want to live around this person?' If yes, then we see about sex. If that also works, we're good to go as far as I'm concerned.

I totally agree with you that if things end up going badly in the relationship things can be screwed up on both sides. I just think the benefits there outweigh the positives, while you obviously think the opposite. Agree to disagree
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

People get offended if their partner have sex with other people, that's why monogamous relationships are the norm.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:31 AM   #36
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

Bro;

You gotta understand we allw ish we were like you.

But the truth is this, some of us have this needy thing in us, that makes us need someone, someone to kuddle, to kiss, to tell us they love us.

Your lcuk,y, some of us are just too needy. We really cant help it though.
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:07 AM   #37
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
Is that why the overwhelming majority of humans are incapable of monogamy? If this were true, monogamy would be the norm from culture to culture, and it isn't, to this day. Jealousy doesn't make monogamy a necessity. Jealousy is an emotional trait, not a logical one. It's not as if jealousy can not be avoided; it can be avoided. All it takes is a mentality change. And a shift from an emotional way of responding to things, to a logical, thought-based process.

Relationships in general fail, regardless of they being polygamous or monogamous. Polygamy isn't unnatural, no more so than monogamy is. It's shunned throughout most societies, but it still occurs and there are long-lasting poly-relationships that occur the same way there are monogamous relationships which occur.

I don't disagree with sexual relationships...........just the idea that relationships are at all a necessity or somehow an ideal for all.

True, but that has nothing to do with needing an exclusive, monogamous relationship with one individual person.

Because a relationship isn't a relationship until sex enters the picture.

I'm happy, don't feel sorry for me. I'm single and loving it!
Well I know lots of couples that have been together for a long time (more than 20 years) without cheating because it isn't in everyone's mindset to want to look for something else.

Maybe you have seen relationships turning violent (not only physically), fights and cheating left right and centre but it isn't the case for ALL relationships.

Of course, I know my fair share of cheaters as well and I think those people should never enter a serious relationship because they don't have the capacity to be monogamous.

Once again, it all comes down to the personality, needs and goals of the people involved, so making a case for ALL mankind is statistically untrue.
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:20 AM   #38
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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Originally Posted by green25814 View Post
I think we see things differently because by your own admission you don't do 'relationships'. If I'm going to be in an actual relationship with a girl, then I need to connect with her emotionally. Sex is great, but I don't need to be in a relationship for that. Sex is kinda secondary here (I know that sounds odd coming from a guy) because if I'm attracted to a girl but find her annoying to talk to, I'm obviously not going to bother with a relationship. One night stand all the way. But if I'm looking for a relationship, the main thing is going to be 'do I want to live around this person?' If yes, then we see about sex. If that also works, we're good to go as far as I'm concerned.
That pretty much clarifies everything and I agree with everything you're saying and it basically states everything I guess I haven't been expressing as well as I should. Basically, there are several categories of relationships, there are emotional relationships, sexual relationships, and relationships that are both emotional and sexual. Then there are other factors, such as the degree/strength of emotions and sex which are involved, but you really read my mind.

The way I see it, I have several friends who I share both emotional and sexual connections with. In fact, to have sex with someone, I need a spark. That is what drives me to get with someone, not necessarily looks and sexual interest, that's part of the package, but not the whole box. I need to feel the energy and passion. I can do this, and having emotional and sexual bonds and connections with people, without needing to put the "commitment" on it, without tying myself down with one person. That's how I operate.

Now, if I were seeking an exclusive, committed relationship, I'd do as you say, I'd put emotions first, like is this person right for me, do I share common interests and goals with them, can I see myself enjoying this persons' company for the rest of my life. I'm not, though, so I don't have to ask myself these things. I just go with the flow and have fun with people I like, without any inhibitions or strings attached.

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I totally agree with you that if things end up going badly in the relationship things can be screwed up on both sides. I just think the benefits there outweigh the positives, while you obviously think the opposite. Agree to disagree
Sounds fine with me, agree to disagree, I'm all for people doing what makes them happy and living their lives as they see fit
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:23 AM   #39
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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Originally Posted by 2003 View Post
Bro;

You gotta understand we allw ish we were like you.

But the truth is this, some of us have this needy thing in us, that makes us need someone, someone to kuddle, to kiss, to tell us they love us.

Your lcuk,y, some of us are just too needy. We really cant help it though.
I guess............I don't really understand it, why people would feel needy like that, but I do take your word for it, and yeah, I'm not going to completely attack people for doing what they want to do or feel they need to do to feel complete. It's not my life. What I do get is that we're all different and some people have different ways of operating, and if that includes some people desiring the feelings they receive by being in a relationship, so be it.
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:43 AM   #40
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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Well I know lots of couples that have been together for a long time (more than 20 years) without cheating because it isn't in everyone's mindset to want to look for something else.
My grandparents have been married over 40 years (at least, might be 50+ now, I forgot). I am semi-close friends with a gay male couple who have been together 22 years. But............this is rare. It is rare to see relationships last this long. The average marriage, at least in the US, averages around 5 years until divorce. And that doesn't take into account the separation rate, and couples who are no longer together but still legally married. The real number is probably in the 4 years range at most. That's just how it is. So, the way I see it, couples who have been together 20+ years are an outlier. And I have a lot of respect for couples who stick together and truly adhere to the "death do us part" symbolization of a truly committed long-term relationship. But that doesn't mean most people are capable of doing this, because facts show that isn't the case.

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Maybe you have seen relationships turning violent (not only physically), fights and cheating left right and centre but it isn't the case for ALL relationships.
True, but most fail. And I believe at least 50% of women and 25% of men have been/are abused in relationships. These are all facts. The facts are ugly. I'm not saying that every single exclusive, monogamous relationship is destined to end in train-wreck. But the reality is that most do not end positively. So, why would I enter a situation knowing, more likely than not, it will not last? Where is the upside? I don't see any. Risk is greater than the reward.

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Of course, I know my fair share of cheaters as well and I think those people should never enter a serious relationship because they don't have the capacity to be monogamous.
Agree 100%, but the pressures of global society that tell people they HAVE to be in a relationship or they are either sluts/pimps/whores/loose/etc. if they have sex outside of a relationship, or essentially unwanted losers that no-one wants to be with, entice people to enter in monogamous relationships when they either aren't ready or aren't prepared/mature enough to handle and accept what being in a monogamous relationship entails. Society is very much to blame for the entire crux of issues that surround individuals' attitudes/behavior on sex, on relationships, on their own identity and self-esteem when it comes to sex and relationships, and I can go on and on.

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Once again, it all comes down to the personality, needs and goals of the people involved, so making a case for ALL mankind is statistically untrue.
True.............it's all individualistic. I'm not in the position to tell others how to live their lives. But I also have to admit when I say I think I'm so obviously right and that everyone should have the mentality I do. And if they did, there would be a lot less drama, less stories of men shooting their children after killing their wife in a spousal dispute. A lot fewer workplace crimes where fired employees, who are desperate and angry because they can't provide for their families, shoot up their former employment office out of frustration. I'm anti-drama and the way I see things I think creates less drama. But it's my opinion, not for me to force it on anyone else.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:08 AM   #41
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
But............this is rare. It is rare to see relationships last this long. The average marriage, at least in the US, averages around 5 years until divorce. And that doesn't take into account the separation rate, and couples who are no longer together but still legally married. The real number is probably in the 4 years range at most. That's just how it is. So, the way I see it, couples who have been together 20+ years are an outlier.
It's no coincidence that the divorce rate in America essentially mirrors the successful second wave of the feminist movement.



These days, women aren't willing and no longer have to put up with what they would have in the 50s and earlier. Women usually have the financial means and education to get by independently, and divorce is no longer social taboo either. Both genders have higher expectations of prospective partners, a greater understanding of what constitutes abuse and know full well that marriage doesn't have to mean forever. When a spouse no longer meets their needs, divorce is a viable and easily accessed option. Unfortunately, this lessens the value of the institution of marriage as it becomes completely disposable.

This doesn't mean love and monogomy do not exist though, it means that human-beings aren't easy creatures to please, and now that both parties are able to stand up for their rights, there's a bigger chance for a marriage to fail. America may have the highest rate of divorce, but it also has the fastest rate of repartnering and remarriage in the world. This means that to some degree, the average American still believes in marriage even after a divorce. To me (someone who has never been married), that says that the human spirit is resilient enough to endure a failed long-term relationship and still see the worth in pursuing another. I'm an idealist and I'd like to believe in the power of love, so I'm happy to say that I genuinely believe the "5 year" statistic doesn't paint the whole picture. Would it help if I said that 50% of all marriages still remain intact at the 20 year mark? That statistic itself could be explored, but I'm afraid I've rambled on enough already.

But to your point: the average courtship lasts 18-24 months, so even if the average marriage only lasts 5 years, you've still given 7 years of your life to one special person. Imagine the many invaluable experiences, important life lessons and (hopefully) all the joy that would be packed into those seven years. Better to have loved and lost...
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:58 AM   #42
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

marriage is politically incorrect these days

but no, it doesn't mean it is a bad thing by default

and it has been discussed very recently on mtf as well
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:24 PM   #43
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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It's no coincidence that the divorce rate in America essentially mirrors the successful second wave of the feminist movement.

These days, women aren't willing and no longer have to put up with what they would have in the 50s and earlier. Women usually have the financial means and education to get by independently, and divorce is no longer social taboo either. Both genders have higher expectations of prospective partners, a greater understanding of what constitutes abuse and know full well that marriage doesn't have to mean forever. When a spouse no longer meets their needs, divorce is a viable and easily accessed option. Unfortunately, this lessens the value of the institution of marriage as it becomes completely disposable.
Agree with everything said, but I don't consider it unfortunate in terms of the value of marriage lessening. To me, it's a great thing. People are becoming significantly more independent minded and are less strung by what moral arbiters say is the "correct" way to live...........more people are living for themselves rather than through others. That's for the betterment of the world as a whole. The fewer people who are essentially brainwashed into living in accordance to what I see as a restrictive and archaic existence, the better.

Quote:
This doesn't mean love and monogomy do not exist though, it means that human-beings aren't easy creatures to please, and now that both parties are able to stand up for their rights, there's a bigger chance for a marriage to fail. America may have the highest rate of divorce, but it also has the fastest rate of repartnering and remarriage in the world. This means that to some degree, the average American still believes in marriage even after a divorce. To me (someone who has never been married), that says that the human spirit is resilient enough to endure a failed long-term relationship and still see the worth in pursuing another.
I think that shows that, in U.S. society, traditional codes of living are still very much prevalent and expected. And that includes partnering with a "soul-mate" for life, getting married, and living the two cars, baby and dog "All-American" lifestyle. Western Europe has moved beyond this significantly, so have more liberal areas in America. Divorce and remarriage rates are highest in the South and conservative areas overall. That shows me that marriage is still a social requirement in these areas where "traditional values" cultural constructs are still the norm, and still something in the heads of individuals in these areas that is sacred and something a person is "supposed" to do. In these areas, marriage is still something that just naturally happens as you grow up, and even if you divorce, marriage is still seen as the ideal standard of living when you're older.

The human spirit factor certainly exists as well. If you want something bad enough, then, for most people at least, they're going to find a way to attain whatever goal they're seeking. In this case, what people want is that special someone. They want someone they can call "the one". Like you see in the movies, that special lover. And one failed relationship isn't going to deter many people from finding that special someone, wherever they may be. So, for people with this mentality, all failed relationships are just steps taken on the journey to everlasting happiness with their soul-mate.

Anyone whose life and happiness is in any way tied through what others do/say/etc. is someone, in my eyes, that has to take a step back and figure out what makes them tick and them INDIVIDUALLY happy. If you need to be with someone to be happy and feel complete, that's a problem. No human being can make you feel happy in your own skin. Being with a partner doesn't magically make things better on the long haul. You may feel fleeting happiness but eventually, when that's gone and you realize that you've married this person and the possibility is there to spend the rest of your life with that individual, what do you do?

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I'm an idealist and I'd like to believe in the power of love, so I'm happy to say that I genuinely believe the "5 year" statistic doesn't paint the whole picture.
I'm a realist It's good to be an idealist in certain situations I think, though. I believe in love, but the reality is, love alone isn't enough. It takes more than love to maintain a relationship, or to enter one at all with someone. The facts are, as the graph you linked indicate, that most relationships fail and have been failing at an increased rate. Marriage/relationships rates in general have been declining sharply. It's not, obviously, the most positive thing to talk about, but we can't deny the truths, and even if they don't paint a pretty picture, I do believe the picture most certainly has been drawn out.

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Would it help if I said that 50% of all marriages still remain intact at the 20 year mark?
Maybe..............but as you said, that's something that needs to be explored. Is that a correct statistic? And even if a couple may be legally defined as married, it doesn't mean they are still in a relationship. We don't know the health of the relationship, why they are still married, if it's for the kids or if they're actually still in love with one another. All we do know is that most relationships do in fact fail before 5-10 years, let alone making it 20+.

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But to your point: the average courtship lasts 18-24 months, so even if the average marriage only lasts 5 years, you've still given 7 years of your life to one special person. Imagine the many invaluable experiences, important life lessons and (hopefully) all the joy that would be packed into those seven years. Better to have loved and lost...
I agree with you on the life lessons aspect. You definitely have the opportunity to learn a lot that you can use for future relationships; you'll be more wise, more experienced, and hopefully a lot more mellow and realistic, given most people tend to enter their first relationship(s) with grand expectations and end up disappointed. But.............can you call someone who you had a relationship with that failed, "special"? Ultimately, if they were that special to you, you wouldn't have broken up. You would always want to be with that person, through thick and thin. Not saying you can't love that person afterward, enjoy time with that person, that the individual you broke up with doesn't still mean a lot to you, and the experiences shared with that person are worthless, but............does any of this make that individual a "special" person? Or just a person that you ultimately had fun with on a more intimate level than a simple friendship for a while, and that ride ended?
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:37 PM   #44
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
marriage is politically incorrect these days

but no, it doesn't mean it is a bad thing by default
I wouldn't necessarily say it's politically incorrect. Just progressively becoming "uncool".

But no, that doesn't make it a bad thing for people who don't think it is. For people who like the idea of marriage, then marriage will always be special and have value. It's just less people think this way these days, for the most part.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:12 PM   #45
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Default Re: Exclusive, monogamous relationships are disgusting.

Marriage is like saying you belong to a religion, it has gotten to be "not cool" these days and many people just let themselves follow it to be in the in crowd.
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