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Old 05-29-2012, 03:31 PM   #586
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

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Originally Posted by lalaland View Post

I don't have TC, and I rather watch online stream than listening to the likes of Doug Adler (gosh, I hate that guy) or those other American commentators. They don't like his game so they don't respect him, which is really unprofessional when they are on TV not just criticizing but disrespecting him. I love the Brits cos they all very appreciative of Gilles' game, thinking that his game is a throwback to the old days which power is not the only element of the game. Those quality commentators like Jason Goodall/Robbie Koenig (who doesn’t like that 2).

Gilles is a nice guy indeed. I can't remember which match I was watching but the commentator said something like “players hate to play Gilles, but off the court they all love him cos he is one of the nicest guy”. I guess good guy don’t really appeal to American fans since fans don’t get to know them, all they care is their so called “on court personality”, and we all know Americans like bad boys, the most famous American players are bad boys: JMac, Conners, Roddick, Agassi (Sampras is too boring, who cares if he's the best of them who hold records and everything?)

Oh well, Gilles can't win them all.
I have to disagree in part with you. I think you are over-generalizing both regarding other commentators, and American fans. Please don't bash people based on nationality, which you are appearing to do, based on what one individual does. Just because John McEnroe (and maybe Doug Adler--I don't listen to him much) says or does something doesn't mean it applies to 300 million other people, or even the few million who watch tennis in the US, or even to the 100 or fewer commentators who work in the US. We don't "all know Americans like bad boys." Some fans like the flashy players; some like the "bad boys"; some like nice guys who are great players. For example, Federer is seen as one of the nicest people in the sport and he has a huge following in the US and everywhere else he goes. So does Nadal, and the same can be said for many of the nice players. And, as you said yourself, Gilles may be under-appreciated by some French fans, for various reasons, so the fact that some Americans don't find him compelling isn't that different. A lot of Americans hated McEnroe's and Connors' on court behavior, and a lot disapprove of Roddick's tantrums, etc., etc., etc. I don't recall that either Agassi or Sampras fell in the category of "bad boy" re: on court behavior, and both had lots of fans. People are no different in the US than anywhere else, in that regard.

I also find most, but not all, of the British commentators on TTC un-knowledgeable and cloyingly hard to listen to, at times. They may or may not know more about Gilles (since so few matches are shown here, I can't make a comparison) but they often demonstrate during other matches that they are not analyzing the match as well as I would like. They also, understandably, are very pro-Murray, which can be hard to listen to if you are not his fan, just as it's hard to listen to John M. rave about Ryan Harrison's game when in fact he is not playing much better than Simon.

John did mention the wind and how it affected each player's game (repeatedly) and I thought, made many good points about tactical choices that could have been better, and did other good things with his commentary, as usual. He's a very smart guy, and loves the game, but he needs to admit when he doesn't really know much about a player and not react simply to the one match he's watching--or better yet, get an assistant to dig up more Gilles info so his commentary is better prepared. It would be nice if he could give Gilles due respect for what he does well. After all, John relied a lot on smarts, speed and finesse in his day--the only thing powerful was his serve--and it was known more for placement than anything else.

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Old 05-29-2012, 03:40 PM   #587
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

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I'm confused. Is this meant to be confrontational? I can't tell? Aren't we all fans of Gilles here? Calling him a pusher isn't a negative thing you know. It's truthful. It just gets turned into a negative thing by commentators (especially commentators who are ex coaches because most of them always teach that a good offense will overcome a good defense to which I simply say "Nadal") who prefer power and straight forward offense over any other style. If you look at that comment as a negative, then you have let them and their rather shallow way of thinking affect you in a way it shouldn't. I never said Gilles relies solely on pushing as his whole game (like I said in my previous comment he's a counterpuncher and tactical player as well which explains why he's been as high as #6 and currently #12 in the world) but it is a huge part of his game and to say otherwise is being a bit in denial.

Ferrer is the same way. He relies very much on his consistency while not going for any real shot unless he has a clear opening. He's actually more so than Gilles. So does Andy Murray. He plays a very similar game to Gilles. He just has more size and power behind his shots and does everything that Gilles does a little bit better hence the head 2 head record. That's why Gilles has kinda become dubbed by commentators "the poor man's Andy Murray". Bernard Tomic is another one who employs a similar style. Again, there is nothing wrong with employing that style. It's a valid style to have as part of your arsenal. It just isn't looked very highly upon by tennis fans and basically 95% of the tennis commentators etc. who have grown accustomed to power tennis where it's all about big serves and forehands and backhands. Hell, most commentators get pissed off when a drop shot is employed these days.

And as far as Gilles' popularity, I'm sorry, but to me it comes off quite clear that the French fans just don't really care as much when it comes to him as they do Tsonga and Monfils. The stadium was way too empty yesterday during his match. I can definitely feel a sort of "cold shoulder vibe" from them when it comes to Gilles. They cheer, but not with as much heart it seems as they do for Monfils and Tsonga. It's especially evident at Davis Cups (you know that team event where there's not much team spirit going on towards Gilles' way, if he's even deemed worthy to play to begin with). To be fair, I think there is something to be said for the notion that Gilles doesn't make it easy for people to like him because of his emotional vibe and low key demeanor. You either get him or you don't. I do because i'm very similar to him in that way and I like who he is and I wouldn't want him to change anything about himself other than believing in himself more.

Anyway, like I said. We know that Gilles is worthy and who cares what the haters think. And remember lalaland, we're on the same team here.
Of course all that matters is that we know he's worthy! :-)

I don't know whether it's true about French fans' liking of Simon vs. the others, simply because I don't have the evidence. As I said earlier, there were other good reasons why many French fans would have been sitting on other courts at the same time, so I don't interpret the less-than-full stands as indicating anything about support for Simon. Also, relative to Monfils and Tsonga, they have been higher ranked than Gilles recently (except when injured) and have perhaps greater capacity to beat the top players when they play well, than does Simon. Gilles hasn't done as well as I am sure he's wanted to in some Davis Cup ties. So I'm not sure any tepid reaction has to do with personality, but with potential/results. I agree with both you and Lalaland that his low key personality may not be appreciated by everyone. But we appreciate it and his great playing style!

Also, I have to disagree a bit about net play. I've seen many players miss an occasional "easy" volley or smash, especially in the wind. That's why I am more interested in the statistics than in an individual play. Several times yesterday when Gilles was at the net and hit a lovely angled volley or touch shot, John said nothing complimentary. I realize that John's net technique was in such a stratospheric category it's probably hard for him to appreciate others, but Gilles' stats tell the tale.
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Old 05-29-2012, 04:25 PM   #588
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

Well, I think Gilles is pretty popular in France, he's always scheduled on Chatrier, last year he was the only Frenc that played all his matches on Chatrier, plus like Lala says L'equipe likes him, appreciate that he is able to do good things. And IIRC, Gilles was more cheered than Tsonga in Montpellier 2010/ Monte Carlo 2012. Also in Paris M-1000 2009 he only continued because of the public which was great with him. Also his net play has been pretty good since late 2010, except some exceptions like the clay match vs Murray in Madrid 2011 and his bad volley vs Nadal in Monte-Carlo, in fact he usually wins more than 75% points when he gets to the net.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:01 PM   #589
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

Thanks for the info Gillouthe best!
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:07 PM   #590
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

By the way, I thought it would be fun to check the net winning percentage of players I consider good volleyers, in their RG matches thus far.

Federer won less than 70% of his approaches in his match with Kamke: 20 of 29 = 69 % winning percentage.

Llodra approached a lot more (of course), but winning % was lower: 46 of 73 = 63 % winning percentage.

Simon's: 23 of 31 = 74 % winning percentage (it was close to 90% for the last two sets).

Take that, John McEnroe!

Also, Simon plays the third match on Chatrier tomorrow. Allez!
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:18 PM   #591
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

I really hope he can come good against Baker tomorrow. He will definitely have to play better than he did 1st round. Hopefully fitness will become an issue for Baker considering all of the tennis he has been playing as of late on his amazing comeback and give Gilles that extra added edge.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:23 PM   #592
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely


Unbelievable what is happening to Serena Williams right now. About to lose her first ever 1st round at a major after being up 5-1 in the 2nd set tiebreak. Totally didn't see this coming. This will be the 1st shock of the tournament. Crowd is going to go nuts for obvious reasons.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:21 PM   #593
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

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Unbelievable what is happening to Serena Williams right now. About to lose her first ever 1st round at a major after being up 5-1 in the 2nd set tiebreak. Totally didn't see this coming. This will be the 1st shock of the tournament. Crowd is going to go nuts for obvious reasons.
Yes, it's unbelievable that she was nearly to the finish line in the 2nd set tiebreak, then got in such a deep hole to a player outside the top 100, then managed nearly to come back, then couldn't finish the task. She had so many chances to break in the final game (8, I believe), with so many 2nd serves, but couldn't do it. But she said she is still in the Mixed Doubles -- she just may take out her frustration in that event!
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:40 PM   #594
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

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Anyway, like I said. We know that Gilles is worthy and who cares what the haters think. And remember lalaland, we're on the same team here.
Sorry I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I guess when opposite opinion is presented, it's hard to sound mild and welcoming. I do not mean to offend anyone and if I came across as offensive, I apologize.

I argue, and with intensity. But I don't see argument as a confrontation. To me, it's just an exchange of opinions, and I like to argue not because I want to change other's opinion, but to present another perspective (my perspective, if that's different from yours) when looking at the same matter. I believe that if only 1 side of opinion is presented, ppl will tend to take that as truth (and I'm not saying that's how you form your opinion, also, sorry for generalization here, don't know how to say it without generalizing). What JMac said about Gilles, are they all truths? does it matter? cos the viewers who don't know any better will just take his words for it. What do they care anyway. While I can't go on TV to tell them another perspective, I just say it on here. Of course I do realize that I don't know Gilles either, everything I said it's just an observation, but I do think I study the subject in much better depth than JMac has and there should be some truth to it for what I've observed so far. I say my perspective to give ppl something else to think about just in case if they haven't thought about it from that angle already. By the same token, I could totally be too wrapped around at my own little world, only others' opinion serve as a check and balance to my own, so I appreciate yours too.

As for whatever the word pusher means originally, it's all good, but the fact is, the term is interpreted as a derogatory one nowadays, or by majority of ppl. Like a lot of words nowadays, what they mean don't equal to what they are perceived.

Telling you not to call him pusher is probably too strong a tone from me, I apologize. I should have just say I won't call him pusher because I believe that is a derogatory term. I may not like a lot of tennis players and their style out there, but I respect them all the same for getting to where they are at, even the top 500 is not easy to do, it takes commitment and determination. I mean, when I was young, I dream about being an athlete too, and look where I am, stuck in the office . How many of us has dreams that didn't come true because we didn't try hard enough to carry them out? Calling them anything, pusher, ballbasher, serve bot, mug... to me is disrespectful. I know ppl on here always said it's for fun, don't take it seriously. Well, I'm just old school I guess. As for calling him pusher is just to be truthful, in your case it is. But we know most of the ppl who said the term mean it in a derogatory manner, therefore, it is just not a nice word to say, IMO anyway.

I know we are all fans of Gilles, but we have different opinions. To me, discussion is fun. Sadly, this kind of discussion only happens in the fan forum, cos GM is hardly a civilized place to carry out a rational discussion of any topic. Then again, I should know not everyone is like me. I'm sorry again if I came across as unfriendly. I love to hear what you have to say, I may not agree but I certainly won't hold it against you, and hopefully you don't hold mine against me .
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:26 PM   #595
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

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I have to disagree in part with you. I think you are over-generalizing both regarding other commentators, and American fans.
I agree that I'm generalizing. It is a bit hard to discuss every individual in America. But I get what you mean. Obviously, I don't mean everyone. It is obvious to me that different nationals hold a certain amount of same beliefs in them due to their cultural upbringing. Brits’ all about traditions while Americans are something else. We generalized them all the time. French players are all flair, Americans are serves and power, Swiss are graceful allrounders, and Spanish are … it never means that no one deviates from that generalization.

I should emphasize that what I said regarding commentators are my observations only. The sentiment is all generated from a specific focal point, which is Gilles Simon. It’s of course a very biased and opinionated sentiment. The Brits commentators are good in general IMO, Eurosport and the other sports channels on TV, and when I said that, I meant to say in my experience of watching those channels of Simon’s matches, I got a feeling that they are really regarding Gilles quite higher. And my experience of watching American commentators is that they generally do not appreciate Gilles. These 2 statements are different side of the same coin. You can say it is as shallow a reason to dislike American commentators just because they don’t like my fave, as it is as shallow a reason to like the Brits because they like my fave. Chances are, if you watch a Simon match with American commentators, most likely you don’t hear them appreciating his game that’s not depends on the offensive power. If you watch the Brits, chances are you will hear them appreciating Gilles’ other game elements. I am not at all saying that American commentators are bad regardless, I myself like JMac and Jim Courier a lot, I will watch them anytime, but if it's a Simon match, i rather watch Eurosport.

It is weird to be accused of bashing a nationality (or ppl based on nationality, same thing) just because I said I don’t like the tennis commentators. I have nothing against any nationality. Americans are great in so many things, they just aren’t great when it comes to commenting a Gilles Simon match, perhaps I should have said it more specifically to avoid the confusion.
When I said 80% of the fans that go to events have no clue of the sports, I don’t mean specifically Americans. I mean everywhere. It is not to insult or criticize, it is just a stat. USO is the biggest single event in US, and is the tennis fan base the biggest here? My sister and her friends went one year, they don’t watch any tennis at all during the year but they went to USO (and sadly it didn’t turn them into a tennis fan after either). I went to a few tournaments myself, with friends who hadn’t had a clue about tennis, but because there’s a tournament in town so they went. It’s the same as other sports; you cannot expect all ppl who go to sports events are diehard. Casual fans are what you want if you are a sports marketer cos they make up the numbers. Just like if you are politicians, you don’t target the diehards, you target the swing votes cos that’s the majority of them are. It’s the same as casual fans to sports. And when casual fans go to sports event, do they know what they are watching? Maybe they do. But I think not. I went to baseball game, the only thing I can tell is a homerun, but a homerun doesn’t make your team better or win, that I reckon, still it is the single most excitement generated action in baseball, isn’t it? Hence, that’s why I said about tennis and casual fans too. Of course, a niche sports probably has a higher percentage of knowledgeable fans attending, cos it's harder to get casual fans, but tennis is not at all niche. It’s not bashing, it’s just what I think is the case.

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Old 05-30-2012, 12:11 AM   #596
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

I was at the French Open today. Didn't think I would see Gilles but I randomly saw him signing autographs right outside one of the practice courts so I got a little bit lucky. I quickly snapped a picture with my phone (it's not good quality) but I'll try to post it later. Anyway, it was a fun day and I tried to bounce around the outer courts to see players I'd never seen live before although it's nearly impossible to watch matches on any of the outside courts because you have to wait in line forever. It's almost too crowded there.

Hopefully Gilles pulls it out tomorrow, if he plays his best he will win. I think he'll play better now that he's gotten through the first round.

ETA: Glad I didn't have to sit through TTC but John McEnroe has always disliked Gilles for whatever reason. He was trashing him the entire match against Nadal during the '10 US Open. I've always found McEnroe to be a brat though and I don't think he follows tennis enough nowadays to make informed opinions about current players. He just makes things up as he goes along.
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:58 AM   #597
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

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Originally Posted by lalaland View Post
Sorry I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I guess when opposite opinion is presented, it's hard to sound mild and welcoming. I do not mean to offend anyone and if I came across as offensive, I apologize.

I argue, and with intensity. But I don't see argument as a confrontation. To me, it's just an exchange of opinions, and I like to argue not because I want to change other's opinion, but to present another perspective (my perspective, if that's different from yours) when looking at the same matter. I believe that if only 1 side of opinion is presented, ppl will tend to take that as truth (and I'm not saying that's how you form your opinion, also, sorry for generalization here, don't know how to say it without generalizing). What JMac said about Gilles, are they all truths? does it matter? cos the viewers who don't know any better will just take his words for it. What do they care anyway. While I can't go on TV to tell them another perspective, I just say it on here. Of course I do realize that I don't know Gilles either, everything I said it's just an observation, but I do think I study the subject in much better depth than JMac has and there should be some truth to it for what I've observed so far. I say my perspective to give ppl something else to think about just in case if they haven't thought about it from that angle already. By the same token, I could totally be too wrapped around at my own little world, only others' opinion serve as a check and balance to my own, so I appreciate yours too.

As for whatever the word pusher means originally, it's all good, but the fact is, the term is interpreted as a derogatory one nowadays, or by majority of ppl. Like a lot of words nowadays, what they mean don't equal to what they are perceived.

Telling you not to call him pusher is probably too strong a tone from me, I apologize. I should have just say I won't call him pusher because I believe that is a derogatory term. I may not like a lot of tennis players and their style out there, but I respect them all the same for getting to where they are at, even the top 500 is not easy to do, it takes commitment and determination. I mean, when I was young, I dream about being an athlete too, and look where I am, stuck in the office . How many of us has dreams that didn't come true because we didn't try hard enough to carry them out? Calling them anything, pusher, ballbasher, serve bot, mug... to me is disrespectful. I know ppl on here always said it's for fun, don't take it seriously. Well, I'm just old school I guess. As for calling him pusher is just to be truthful, in your case it is. But we know most of the ppl who said the term mean it in a derogatory manner, therefore, it is just not a nice word to say, IMO anyway.

I know we are all fans of Gilles, but we have different opinions. To me, discussion is fun. Sadly, this kind of discussion only happens in the fan forum, cos GM is hardly a civilized place to carry out a rational discussion of any topic. Then again, I should know not everyone is like me. I'm sorry again if I came across as unfriendly. I love to hear what you have to say, I may not agree but I certainly won't hold it against you, and hopefully you don't hold mine against me .
No worries lalaland . Now let's hope Gilles can make it easy on us today. (yeah right )
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:20 PM   #598
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

i just can't believe eurosport are showing Bartoli!!!! and Verdasco and not his match
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:24 PM   #599
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike s. View Post
I was at the French Open today. Didn't think I would see Gilles but I randomly saw him signing autographs right outside one of the practice courts so I got a little bit lucky. I quickly snapped a picture with my phone (it's not good quality) but I'll try to post it later. Anyway, it was a fun day and I tried to bounce around the outer courts to see players I'd never seen live before although it's nearly impossible to watch matches on any of the outside courts because you have to wait in line forever. It's almost too crowded there.

Hopefully Gilles pulls it out tomorrow, if he plays his best he will win. I think he'll play better now that he's gotten through the first round.

ETA: Glad I didn't have to sit through TTC but John McEnroe has always disliked Gilles for whatever reason. He was trashing him the entire match against Nadal during the '10 US Open. I've always found McEnroe to be a brat though and I don't think he follows tennis enough nowadays to make informed opinions about current players. He just makes things up as he goes along.
Hey, Mike, lucky you! I went to RG years ago and agree it is too crowded. A friend said going later in the tournament makes it much easier on fans as the tournament does not sell as many tickets since there aren't as many pro matches on the outer courts. That sounded like a good idea.

Johnny Mac is being much more complimentary today, but mostly that is due to his focusing on Gilles' play today, which is better so far than last round (knock on wood). He stumbles when he tries to make statements about Simon's "typical" play or behavior (good and bad), which John obviously knows little about. If Gilles keeps playing Americans (again, I don't want to jinx him) John will be forced to learn more about him!

Lalaland, thanks for the explanation.

Allez!
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:33 PM   #600
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Default Re: Clay season 2012, "Take Two" most definitely

can anyone please tell me whats happening and why he's falling apart
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