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View Poll Results: Which final was better?

2009 AO 37 40.22%
2012 AO 55 59.78%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-23-2012, 03:26 AM   #61
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by stewietennis View Post
Err… against the winner of the last two majors, world No 1 and defending AO Champion Novak Djokovic… Nadal was the favourite? Against the person who has beaten him six times in a row? On Novak's favourite surface? Just No. No one was calling Nadal the favourite – at best, it was 50/50.
yeah, I was just going to post the same thing. nice post by lisakoh but "Nadal being favorite at the AO" made me laugh.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:05 AM   #62
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by zcess81 View Post


I hope you're joking! 18-9 H2H isn't rivalry, it's domination. The whole Fedal "rivalry" has been sold to casual tennis fans (those who only watch grand slams, or even just semis or finals of a slam) by the media just to get them watching tennis and sell more tickets. The truth is, it never really was a rivalry.
There is some truth in this, particularly post-2007, from which point a declining Federer was always going to be unlikely to beat a peaking Nadull in any but favourable conditions, but it's wrong to ignore the surface dimension. Had the "rivalry" been fought out on 1950s indoor wood or fast 1960s grass, or, probably, on any surface before luxilon strings, it would have been even more lopsided, only in Federer's favour. Nadal's success against Federer depends on his ability to get the ball high to Fed's backhand, thereby taking control of the rallies. Whenever conditions don't allow this, Federer wins, often very comfortably, even at the age of 30. Unfortunately, most surface/ball combinations used on the ATP tour do allow Nadal to get the ball high to Fed's backhand, & I think it may be this, rather than any mental weakness, that explains Roger's often resigned attitude to defeat. He knows there are factors outside his control.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:36 AM   #63
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
It's not so very hard to realize the lopsidedness of their rivalry if you take into account that 1) one player's strongest surface was the other one's weakest, as well as the fact that 2) one player being five years older than the other. Let alone that in general, one player's weakness is the other guy's main stronghold - mental fortitude and a one-handed BH.
If only Fed were a genuine mug on clay, and didn't manage to continue to play on so well on his weakest surface for such a long time... it would have perhaps have looked a lot more balanced.

H2H's are very delusional stats and surely do not stop me from appreciating this rivalry (no parentheses here) at all. Rather the contrary.
And no, I am most certainly *not* a 'casual tennis fan'.

this.

or imagine fed would be a clown on clay (and so avoid nadal at roland garros) and nadal good enough indoors to reach the finals of wtf continuously and would beaten there by fed.

everything said about the h2h between them
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:40 AM   #64
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by FlameOn View Post
Agree. Their matches are horrid. Federer knows what tactic's coming every time yet can't do a damn thing about it. Makes for horrible tennis.
everything depends on the surface between them. that's why nadal can't beat fed indoors.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:46 AM   #65
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

afrter so many matches, the surface issue becomes irrelevant. at slams, now it stands at 8-2 in favor of nadal which is, frankly, terrible. domination is so complete that there really is no way of presenting their rivarly in any other way.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:53 AM   #66
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Vida View Post
afrter so many matches, the surface issue becomes irrelevant. at slams, now it stands at 8-2 in favor of nadal which is, frankly, terrible. domination is so complete that there really is no way of presenting their rivarly in any other way.
5 of those 8 wins were at roland garros. so no, surface isn't irrelevant. they've also never met at uso...
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:54 AM   #67
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Vida View Post
afrter so many matches, the surface issue becomes irrelevant. at slams, now it stands at 8-2 in favor of nadal which is, frankly, terrible. domination is so complete that there really is no way of presenting their rivarly in any other way.
Not if the matches are mostly played on slow, high-bouncing surfaces it doesn't. If Borg had played McEnroe 50 times on clay & amassed a 45-5 record, the surface would still have been relevant.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:58 AM   #68
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
2009 and it's not even close, despite a complete breakdown by Fed in that 5th set. The other four sets outdid the entirety of the 2012 final in pure quality of tennis - by far.
Quoted for truth
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:12 AM   #69
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
Not if the matches are mostly played on slow, high-bouncing surfaces it doesn't. If Borg had played McEnroe 50 times on clay & amassed a 45-5 record, the surface would still have been relevant.
so what if they suited one player more than the other? fed still gets the credit for playing there is he not?

looking at their rivalry, I dont think any of that is relevant cause in the end the conditions are same for both players.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:16 AM   #70
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
There is some truth in this, particularly post-2007, from which point a declining Federer was always going to be unlikely to beat a peaking Nadull in any but favourable conditions, but it's wrong to ignore the surface dimension. Had the "rivalry" been fought out on 1950s indoor wood or fast 1960s grass, or, probably, on any surface before luxilon strings, it would have been even more lopsided, only in Federer's favour. Nadal's success against Federer depends on his ability to get the ball high to Fed's backhand, thereby taking control of the rallies. Whenever conditions don't allow this, Federer wins, often very comfortably, even at the age of 30. Unfortunately, most surface/ball combinations used on the ATP tour do allow Nadal to get the ball high to Fed's backhand, & I think it may be this, rather than any mental weakness, that explains Roger's often resigned attitude to defeat. He knows there are factors outside his control.
Do you really believe that Fed with all his talent can't do anything about this match up issue? I don't believe that. He could do something to make his matches against at least much more competitive but he didn't even bother anymore. He gave up trying.

A player with all the tennis skills/talent in his game has no excuse to be owned like this by his main rival. FO 2011 final & AO SF proved that Fed has the potential beat Nadal on any surface but he abviously gave up mentally long time ago. He isn't a fighter unfortunetly.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:24 AM   #71
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
2009 and it's not even close, despite a complete breakdown by Fed in that 5th set. The other four sets outdid the entirety of the 2012 final in pure quality of tennis - by far.
sorry but this post shows what a complete unnatural twisting is taking place, that looks to be coming from a blind player worship.

"pure quality of tennis" but despite a "complete breakdown by fed in the 5th set".

firstly, it looks as if nadal had nothing to do with the outcome - because the other player broke down, thereby implying that the "pure quality" lays ONLY on the fed. would've been a clumsy joke this, had it not been serious.

secondly, this post contains the notion that "quality" lays exclusively on tennis geometry (which of course it does partly), and that it has nothing to do with what in truth it has so much to do, and which is the actual quality of tennis: matchup, mentality, fight, clutch, etc...

as if the purpose of tennis as a sport is solely to provide us with pleasurable viewing experience, having NOTHING to do with the aim of the game (to win), and which in the end is the reason the game takes place.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #72
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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so what if they suited one player more than the other? fed still gets the credit for playing there is he not?

looking at their rivalry, I dont think any of that is relevant cause in the end the conditions are same for both players.
What? Of course they're not the same for both players. Both players are different so the same surface has wildly different implications for the effectiveness of their games. On (relatively) low-bouncing surfaces Federer is 6-2 against Nadal, with 2 of those victories occurring in his dotage. On higher-bouncing surfaces Nadal is 16-3. Is that not a telling difference?
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:29 AM   #73
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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What? Of course they're not the same for both players. Both players are different so the same surface has wildly different implications for the effectiveness of their games. On (relatively) low-bouncing surfaces Federer is 6-2 against Nadal, with 2 of those victories occurring in his dotage. On higher-bouncing surfaces Nadal is 16-3. Is that not a telling difference?
excuse me, if fed and nadal hit exact same shots on the same court, the ball behaves the exact same way, does it not?
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:31 AM   #74
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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Originally Posted by Nole Rules View Post
Do you really believe that Fed with all his talent can't do anything about this match up issue? I don't believe that. He could do something to make his matches against at least much more competitive but he didn't even bother anymore. He gave up trying.

A player with all the tennis skills/talent in his game has no excuse to be owned like this by his main rival. FO 2011 final & AO SF proved that Fed has the potential beat Nadal on any surface but he abviously gave up mentally long time ago. He isn't a fighter unfortunetly.
You're forgetting that Nadal has a fair bit of talent as well. He is one of the greatest clay-courters of all time, & a better clay-courter than Federer, AND he can take control of rallies by getting the ball up high to Fed's backhand on high-bouncing surfaces. Most of their matches have been on high-bouncing surfaces. Federer has to play at a ridiculously high level even to be competitive against Nadal on high-bouncing surfaces. Had Borg & McEnroe played on clay 12 times in addition to their other matches (split 7-7), Borg would have been something like 19-9 against Johnny Mac & you would have been asking why McEnroe with all his talent couldn't do anything about this terrible match-up.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:33 AM   #75
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Default Re: Which AO final was better

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excuse me, if fed and nadal hit exact same shots on the same court, the ball behaves the exact same way, does it not?
They don't hit the exact same shots because they are different players.

Name me one rivalry between comparably great players in which surface has not been a significant factor. The only one I can think of off-hand is Djoker-Nadal, & that's only recently.
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