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Old 12-09-2013, 08:00 AM   #1
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Default Men who are feminists

I wanted to open this topic as I consider myself a feminist, as a man.

I am not into the fake feminism which eventually allows women to be superior to men, or the feminism which gives credits to women only and gives all the privileges to them. I am a man of equal measures, for both genres. I firmly believe machism is an ancestral practice that sits on fears of women as a source of troubles for the gender that possesses the physical power (every religion is into it, for instance).

Nowadays, the machism and patriarchal spirit is still everywhere and in too many minds!
I spoke yesterday to a friend of mine who's currently working in a McDonald's, in Geneva. She told me that they keep women as the ones serving the clients, and the male figure is kept in the kitchen. How so? Women are still, and more than ever, an object of commerce. Because, you see, that same friend heard one of her managers say to one of her colleagues that "it was too difficult to reverse the roles in the restaurant, and they don't because women attract the clients because they are attractive, more than men anyway." What is this, seriously? Will people ever learn? She told me that women there have to tell the managers if there is something wrong related to sexism and/or sexual harrassment so they can act against it, yet, this kind of argument is used as a mean of marketability. For cheeseburgers?!

I also blame women in this, because many of them remain silent, fearing for their jobs and image. While I understand that, I also think the minds of people (and women especially) are so restricted and guided by patriarchal voices that they end up believing all that crap. It's like "blue is for boys and pink is the women's colour." It's a goddamn colour! And all these little details in the functionning system are what make it so difficult in the relationships between men and women, and why they seem to not understand each other.

I have many things to say about it but I will developp my thoughts throughout the thread, I guess.
Your turn now!
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

Interesting topic for MTF. Although I doubt that it will receive the commentaries you expect on this board.

I have one question that can supplement the OP correctly:
Are you married, or in a steady-to-marriage relationship?

Your cheeseburger example is not fully correct though. I doubt most women would WANT to work in the kitchen as it is the more difficult job, so the restaurant example IMO is not that good in the feminist franchise. They are content with a lesser job, that brings in the easier income. The job women would want and maybe deserve are the leadership positions. That's where you must focus your discussion.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:15 AM   #3
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Interesting topic for MTF. Although I doubt that it will receive the commentaries you expect on this board.

I have one question that can supplement the OP correctly:
Are you married, or in a steady-to-marriage relationship?

Your cheeseburger example is not fully correct though. I doubt most women would WANT to work in the kitchen as it is the more difficult job, so the restaurant example IMO is not that good in the feminist franchise. They are content with a lesser job, that brings in the easier income. The job women would want and maybe deserve are the leadership positions. That's where you must focus your discussion.
That's where you are wrong! I asked that question to my friend and she told me that her and many of her female colleagues were very interested to go to the kitchen as their male colleagues tell them that there is nothing difficult and not doable for women, physically speaking. She also told me that not even a year ago, 2 or 3 young women were on kitchen but they found a new job/finished their studies since, and the owner of the restaurant changed and changed the "rules".

No, I am not married or engaged. Even if it now allows gay people to marry in some countries, - which is amazing for equality! - I believe it is all kinds of wrong because it is an instance that once allowed men to become the Alpha figure in the family, the one ruling it. Because of this ancestry, I am not for it, for anybody. And damn, in many many countries and even so-called "developped" countries, this train of thought exists. Again, it is something debasing women.

I can seem a bit extreme. But again, I am not sure if it is me that is extreme, or of it is our inheritance of old beliefs and rules of conduct that makes these things acceptable. They aren't acceptable for me, that is for sure.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

Well, i'm pro equality myself, equal pay, equal rights and duties, but i think it's going too far with the example you're giving.

If the female waitresses or cashiers attract more customers, then what is wrong with that? I'm also for equal pay in porn, but women get the big pie, while the poor guys get fractions, coz women are more interesting in porn than men. It's like that, what can you do.

I'm also outraged almost no women collect the garbage or work in the mining industry, but at the end of the day it's all about understanding and accepting the physical differences between the genders and not mixing them with the mental part.

That's what has been happening in the past and that's the base for segregation before - men are physically stronger generally, hence they're smarter.

Now that this myth is no longer a thing, what should happen is give everyone the right to choose and equal start, from there on the smarter, more qualified, better educated, with stronger personal qualities will make more than others and that's just the normal ways in the world. Or at least in the western world.

Sex sales. That's not specifically segregationist as it works in both directions.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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That's where you are wrong! I asked that question to my friend and she told me that her and many of her female colleagues were very interested to go to the kitchen as their male colleagues tell them that there is nothing difficult and not doable for women, physically speaking. She also told me that not even a year ago, 2 or 3 young women were on kitchen but they found a new job/finished their studies since, and the owner of the restaurant changed and changed the "rules".

No, I am not married or engaged. Even if it now allows gay people to marry in some countries, - which is amazing for equality! - I believe it is all kinds of wrong because it is an instance that once allowed men to become the Alpha figure, the one ruling it. So, for the sake of this ancestry, I am not for it, for anybody. And, damn, in many many countries, and even so-called "developped" countries, thius train of thought exists. Again, it is something debasing women.

I can seem a bit extreme. But again, I am not sure if it is me that is extreme, or of it is our inheritance of old beliefs and rules of conduct that makes these things acceptable. They aren't acceptable for me, that is for sure.
Alright, I can see where you are coming now. I do agree that if women do want to work in the kitchen because they consider the challenge doable, by no means they should be denied that. Just like my wife wanting to consider a Project Manager position and being denied it because of a reason like "your judgement may be compromised during one specific time of the month".

I only said that a feminist debate should be focused on leadership positions because that's where women are denied entry into the family of the big earning key positions. These positions can be denied using all the reasons possible, including the right reasons. There are exceptions however. I am curious to see the general opinion of this board regarding the question:

Are women less capable of leadership than men?
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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Originally Posted by latso View Post
Well, i'm pro equality myself, equal pay, equal rights and duties, but i think it's going too far with the example you're giving.

If the female waitresses or cashiers attract more customers, then what is wrong with that? I'm also for equal pay in porn, but women get the big pie, while the poor guys get fractions, coz women are more interesting in porn than men. It's like that, what can you do.

I'm also outraged almost no women collect the garbage or work in the mining industry, but at the end of the day it's all about understanding and accepting the physical differences between the genders and not mixing them with the mental part.

That's what has been happening in the past and that's the base for segregation before - men are physically stronger generally, hence they're smarter.

Now that this myth is no longer a thing, what should happen is give everyone the right to choose and equal start, from there on the smarter, more qualified, better educated, with stronger personal qualities will make more than others and that's just the normal ways in the world. Or at least in the western world.

Sex sales. That's not specifically segregationist as it works in both directions.
That is you giving up, as I said. It's us giving up and letting our laziness rule this world, and our cousciousness in our strength as MEN that makes it look OK. Things get easier for us.

Can't men be as attractive than women, seriously? We are just used to sell products with a woman. On a car, as cashiers, as sellers. For the sake of glamour? What about selling things with intelligence and competence instead of bling bling?
Women are not even asked if they want to work in "physically demanding" jobs. And they do not ask for it either, because that's the rules society has put on men and women. I swear, some women like the idea of working in such places, but society doesn't want of them. Because IMAGE sells.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:37 AM   #7
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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Originally Posted by MachineGun View Post
That is you giving up, as I said. It's us giving up and letting our laziness rule this world, and our cousciousness in our strength as MEN that makes it look OK. Things get easier for us.

Can't men be as attractive than women, seriously? We are just used to sell products with a woman. On a car, as cashiers, as sellers. For the sake of glamour? What about selling things with intelligence and competence instead of bling bling?
Women are not even asked if they want to work in "physically demanding" jobs. And they do not ask for it either, because that's the rules society has put on men and women. I swear, some women like the idea of working in such places, but society doesn't want of them. Because IMAGE sells.
nah, i disagree.

Society doesn't stop them from any job, they're in the army, police and wherever they're qualified for.

Many women want to work as models and porn actresses. That's a job separated by gender and whatever overly dramatic thing we come to say around would not changed that, as there is no oppression, no forcing, just choices and market demand.

I believe you're seriously entering the overly feminist area, which is imo just as bad as the machism.

She wants to work in the kitchen, but is denied this "right"? I want to work as a pilot, but they wouldn't let me..

It's the company's policy, it is based on marketing results and it's about their money. Besides, they're probably not just showing the ladies off, rather hiding the ugly dudes behind, which is even worse, but that's how they've chosen to do business.

Besides, there are so many male waiters and baristas, just as many women cooks, so it's a no discussion here i fear.

At the same time, Slasher's example is actually a matter for the court of justice.

To even mention such a stupidity that women can't be trusted with their decisions during a "certain period" of the month is raging stupidity, but to give it as a formal job rejection argument is downright criminal.

That's a discussion and these are the situations the society needs to work on, while the number of women in a strip club being bigger than male strippers, coz men are pigs is...well, way too "deep" to even consider.

For me that is.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Alright, I can see where you are coming now. I do agree that if women do want to work in the kitchen because they consider the challenge doable, by no means they should be denied that. Just like my wife wanting to consider a Project Manager position and being denied it because of a reason like "your judgement may be compromised during one specific time of the month".
What do yout hink it is, then, other than sexism? There is no other explaination. A woman is perfectly capable of taking the right decisions, independently of her hormones and what's happening to her body! Men could also take some stupid decisions because there is an hormonal cataclysm goign on in his body, but of course it doesn't exist, because men ARE clever and well-prepared and well-conceived.

Quote:
I only said that a feminist debate should be focused on leadership positions because that's where women are denied entry into the family of the big earning key positions. These positions can be denied using all the reasons possible, including the right reasons. There are exceptions however. I am curious to see the general opinion of this board regarding the question:

Are women less capable of leadership than men?
Why wouldn't they be? Isn't the professional experience that should matter, after all? Take a man and a woman with the same scholar/professional development, why not give them both the same chance and same place in the society? My guess is always the same: patriarchal society.

I'm sorry to repeat these words often, but they are the key to how our lives are conducted.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:47 AM   #9
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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nah, i disagree.

Society doesn't stop them from any job, they're in the army, police and wherever they're qualified for.

Many women want to work as models and porn actresses. That's a job separated by gender and whatever overly dramatic thing we come to say around would not changed that, as there is no oppression, no forcing, just choices and market demand.

I believe you're seriously entering the overly feminist area, which is imo just as bad as the machism.

She wants to work in the kitchen, but is denied this "right"? I want to work as a pilot, but they wouldn't let me..

It's the company's policy, it is based on marketing results and it's about their money. Besides, they're probably not just showing the ladies off, rather hiding the ugly dudes behind, which is even worse, but that's how they've chosen to do business.

Besides, there are so many male waiters and baristas, just as many women cooks, so it's a no discussion here i fear.

At the same time, Slasher's example is actually a matter for the court of justice.

To even mention such a stupidity that women can't be trusted with their decisions during a "certain period" of the month is raging stupidity, but to give it as a formal job rejection argument is downright criminal.

That's a discussion and these are the situations the society needs to work on, while the number of women in a strip club being bigger than male strippers, coz men are pigs is...well, way too "deep" to even consider.

For me that is.
What I see here is that you are ready to give up all forms of morals and equality for money. Doesn't that sound wrong to you?

Maybe I am extreme, but I at least I try to think outside the box, in order to find a new way to live, a way that makes it easier on everybody, not just a single gender.

And I purposedly chose some very "down-to-earth", very "random" examples so people can see the absurdity of the machist mindset. The fact that a lot of money is at stake is important in the analyse when you consider all the factors and the environment in which the money is made. The fact that a lot of money is made and that the formula used is successful doesn't make it right! it works, but it is wrong. Just as much it is wrong to say "if it's on the radio and the music sells, it must mean that it's good." It's exactly the same idea!
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:51 AM   #10
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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That's where you are wrong! I asked that question to my friend and she told me that her and many of her female colleagues were very interested to go to the kitchen as their male colleagues tell them that there is nothing difficult and not doable for women, physically speaking. She also told me that not even a year ago, 2 or 3 young women were on kitchen but they found a new job/finished their studies since, and the owner of the restaurant changed and changed the "rules".

No, I am not married or engaged. Even if it now allows gay people to marry in some countries, - which is amazing for equality! - I believe it is all kinds of wrong because it is an instance that once allowed men to become the Alpha figure in the family, the one ruling it. Because of this ancestry, I am not for it, for anybody. And damn, in many many countries and even so-called "developped" countries, this train of thought exists. Again, it is something debasing women.

I can seem a bit extreme. But again, I am not sure if it is me that is extreme, or of it is our inheritance of old beliefs and rules of conduct that makes these things acceptable. They aren't acceptable for me, that is for sure.
From a McD perspective I find that weird - I worked for them for a couple of years in the past in the UK and we had no issues with girls in the kitchen and guys on the front counter.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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What do yout hink it is, then, other than sexism? There is no other explaination. A woman is perfectly capable of taking the right decisions, independently of her hormones and what's happening to her body! Men could also take some stupid decisions because there is an hormonal cataclysm goign on in his body, but of course it doesn't exist, because men ARE clever and well-prepared and well-conceived.



Why wouldn't they be? Isn't the professional experience that should matter, after all? Take a man and a woman with the same scholar/professional development, why not give them both the same chance and same place in the society? My guess is always the same: patriarchal society.

I'm sorry to repeat these words often, but they are the key to how our lives are conducted.
I am trying to see how everyone else besides yourself and myself answer these. I already have the same answers as you.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:28 AM   #12
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

Can't wait for GOAT=Fed to weigh in with his two cents.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

I think the U.S is the staple sexist and anti-feminist country and it is not something I'm proud of.

So many closeted people in America who believe in the Bread-Winner mentality and women inferiority.

I don't have time to go into a huge rant. But I agree with everything that has been said.

Edit, Also the only direction this thread is going is: everyone vs. Goat=Fed
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:47 AM   #14
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

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Women are not even asked if they want to work in "physically demanding" jobs. And they do not ask for it either, because that's the rules society has put on men and women. I swear, some women like the idea of working in such places, but society doesn't want of them. Because IMAGE sells.
If a job is really "physically demanding" (construction site etc), of course you'll want a guy there, can't see many woman carrying around 50kg sacks and whatnot. Anyway, there's probably bigger discrimination in that they would want pretty/handsome women working at 'front office', not just any women
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Men who are feminists

Well first of all if you are a man and call yourself a feminist [any sort, first wave, second wave, third wave, hardcore or feminazi] you should slice your balls off and turn them in. You are in fully support of gender genocide against men.

Socrates said: ''Once made equal to man, woman becomes his superior'' and this is seen today in the real world during the time of feminism. Obviously the genius of this claim is that Socrates had foreseen this millenniums before any trace of feminism [earliest I can read up on feminism is around the times of the Romans, maybe there might have been a feminist uprising during the period of antiquity but I doubt it]. Women want all the rights but none of the responsibilities. Take for example, feminists harping on about boardroom quotas but no feminist is seen championing for quotas for female truck drivers, female rubbish collectors or female contruction workers [none of these in particular require physical strength apart from the last one]. Women want to be ''strong and independent'' yet want the taxpayer to foot the bill for any children they have [Yup, that's some great showing of strength and independence]. Women also intiate 70% of divorces because they're 'bored', leaving behind destroyed households. When no-fault divorces were in place divorce rates were less than 5%. It shows that women aren't capable of accepting responsibility.

If a man wants this for woman he can no longer consider himself a man since he had abandoned man's best tool: Logic, and has become a pussy panderer.

Furthermore, feminist also want ''equal'' pay like men, yet go to any university class in Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering or Computer Science and I can guarantee you >95% of the people there will be men. These are the degrees which typically lead to a high pay, and even with desperate quotas introduced, women [Feel sad for all the men who have had to miss out because some institution was forced to fulfil some stupid quota and take on someone who might not have been good enough without such quotas] still do not take up these subjects in big enough numbers, yet feminists want their useless HR jobs to be paid the same as a chemical engineer who has worked hard his whole life to get where he is. There was a joke amongst some people I knew when we were choosing our university subject: If it has a lot of women in it it is useless and will lead nowhere. Obviously inaccurate since it is a blanket statement to some degree but also is true for many cases. If a woman wants to get paid the same as a man then she should work like one [ie take no time off of you 'career' to have a child and hence halt said career] and choose the same path as the higher paid men.

Women also have not evolved to be working 8-9 hours a day whereas work is a part of a man's identity and men have been toiling all day since the start of humanity. Don't believe me? Well here's the proof:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ng-unhappiness

Quote:
Stevenson and Wolfers found that American women – of all social classes, ages and whether they worked, stayed home, had kids or did not – had seen a decline in happiness since the early 70s. Thirty years ago, women reported higher rates of subjective wellbeing than men in the US. This advantage has been entirely eroded, and in many instances it is now men who are happier than women. So how did women manage to end up, after a generation of advances in gender equality, less happy typically than their mothers at their age?....The demands of a highly individualistic, intensely competitive world are at odds with the identities of a mother, sister, friend
Simply put women are not naturally accosted to being a 9-5 slave wage [which is what everyone who typically works in an office job is, both men and women]. Heck, look at the big costs to the UK National Health Service because of the amount of female doctors taking time off to raise children and work part-time or change their 'careers' to housewives:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...work-time.html

Quote:
Female doctors put NHS under 'tremendous burden' because they get married, have children and want to work part-time ....Tory MP Anne McIntosh: NHS is forced to train two part-time GPs......Up to 70 per cent of medical students are female, MPs are told.....Labour says comments are 'insulting to women and the NHS'
Up to 70 percent of medical students are females, the state spends thousands training these doctors yet they are dropping out after a few years because they cannot cope, simple as that. Also see the only response to this by one of the major parties? All they can come up with when faced with facts and logic are ad-homs which is the staple-point of any feminist's argument [which is what this post will be receiving as well, if you only want to respond with ad-homs, just don't. It'll further confirm your stupidity].

And the main reason why there are so many female students? Because there are huge quotas and pressures for medical courses to take on a LOT of female doctors. The only quota which should be used is: Ability and intelligence for both men and women. It's sad that women are too busy working on their careers which, statistically speaking, they're more than likely halt it or leave altogether, in their at the ages of 18-25 whereas, naturally, that is their prime child rearing age and instead should be looking for a partner to settle down with. Personally I don't care what you do, but then don't go crying on the media ''where have all the good men gone'' when you're 30, far past your prime working on your career then complain that no man wants you [Hint: Having a career makes a man attractive in women's eyes but most men could honestly give less of a shit whether or not you have caweer]. Even more hilarious are the articles written to the tone of ''Why won't all these men man up and marry these single mothers whose children all have different dads''. You make the choices then deal with the consequences. Feminism has gone to far. It has alienated men to such a degree it doesn't seem possible for it to ever be forgotten. There is no way for men to be shamed or brainwashed into going backwards or staying the same. Conversely to move ahead, women will have a lot of hard work ahead of them. Which we all know just ain't going to happen.

Also this feminist blog entry I saw recently which had me in stiches:

http://www.salon.com/2011/01/15/femi..._mormon_blogs/

Quote:
They spend their weekends throwing big, whimsical dinner parties for their friends, all of whom have equally adorable kids and husbands. ...

Their lives are nothing like mine — I’m your standard-issue late-20-something childless overeducated atheist feminist — yet I’m completely obsessed with their blogs. ...

This focus on the positive is especially alluring when your own life seems anything but easy. As my friend G. says, of her fascination with Mormon lifestyle blogs, “I’m just jealous. I want to arrange flowers all day too!”
This just echoes 'Work is hard! Why don't I enjoy being a corporate drone, just as feminism promised me? Aren't I grateful for feminism for rescuing me from ''the pleasant concentration camp'' that a home is? Why then it feels like I miss out something when I see these happy housewives? What's wrong with me?' Feminists wonder.

That's might be why the statistics of usage of mental health meds for women are on the rise. When indoctrination collides baser instincts, you cannot avoid meltdown.

These young feminists fell for feminism hook, line and sinker: their place in boardroom not in bedroom. They didn't stop for a second to calculate how many boardrooms are there compared to the bedrooms. Of course, now they don't have a choice whether they work or not, having gone this far. Just like men who have no choice but work for a living. But unlike men who we are wired to provide for, at least, ourselves, as our identity, women now are similarly having no choice.

Feminism goes against basic nature and even Socrates. It is a dangerous slippery slope when you go against two such giants. It's like an ATP challenger tour level player trying to take on Rafa. He has no chance, he might even be good for a game or two within a set, but in the end we all know Rafa will utterly annihilate him.

The only winner from feminism is the Government who now laughs to the bank with their increased revenue of taxes and how much inflation has risen so that you cannot raise a family without a dual income.

Someone recently here said that women are are in the police force and in 'firefighting', well guess who has to do most of the physical works and paper work? Certainly isn't the woman, it's the man all the time. Watch this video to see how badly trained female 'firefighters' [Should be fireman in all honesty, enough of this PC bullshit] are:



Would you want her saving you in a blazing fire?

Lastly, I hear and see women always saying how 'woman has ALWAYS been superior. That's why they won't give us level ground' [Despite women having equal ground, both legally and sociall, heck it's more than equal in all honesty]. Say a woman is superior and you'll be appluaded, say a man is equal and people will be out with their pitchforks. Well tell me: Who has made the internet, the computer [through which we're communicating through right now], infrastructue, society, heck all the daily appliances which women use to make their lives easier? Certainly not women, yet it's lauded to claim women are superior [politicians even claim this openly, Obama recently said women can do better than men and that too in their heels! No surprise that he's a feminist] but acknowledge the TRUTH and you get shamed, criticised and treated worse than dirt.

If men were to become extinct right now, humanity and civilisation would be in serious danger as soon as the first pipe leakage occurred. If women were to become extinct, life would go on as normal, the only problem would be reproduction which I'm sure all the academic minds would come together and find a solution in the form of artificial wombs in 10 years, if that.

I am proud to be a man, the men who are feminist have a guilt complexion and are ashamed whereas they should be proud of what their gender has accomplished. Men have gone to the moon and explored planets [albeit through robots].

Last edited by GOAT = Fed : 12-09-2013 at 12:13 PM.
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