[FairWeatherFan]

Yes, and Courier is also a greater claycourter than Nadal.

[Jimnik]

Only 1 RG title for Fedbot but he was also runner-up 4 times. Plus he has more clay masters.

Federer > Courier > Djokovic

Until proven otherwise.

[sexybeast]

Originally Posted by latso

Borg, Lendl, Courier, Muster, Kuerten, Nadal

Those are the ultimate clay monsters from the 70s up.

Djokovic and Federer are like the McEnroe, Agassi, Stich, Coretja or Ferrero of their time, not even Bruguera.

So no comparison is even possible. Even if Federer wins one more RG he'd be a Bruguera.

So, Courier is a "clay monster" and on another cathegory than Bruguera? Up there with Nadal, Borg and Muster. You know they all won +30 clay titles and that Courier won only 5 titles, right?

From the 70s up you also have Nastasse and Vilas who were way superior to Courier on clay and won 70 clay titles between them, so I really dont know where you got in your mind that Courier is one of the 5 giants of this surface? Wouldnt have him in my top 15 list.

You rank Agassi in another cathegory, but they were not far from equals on clay during Courier's prime. Courier just had a slight edge against Agassi when they were young but arguably you could say Agassi in the long run catched up with Courier and achieved almost as much as Courier on clay.

Also, if Federer won another RG I would put him somewhere close to Lendl on clay.

[SetSampras]

Courier at his peak in the early 90s? Yes he was a better clay courter then Nole and Fed. But he went downhill fast.

[sexybeast]

Originally Posted by SetSampras

Courier at his peak in the early 90s? Yes he was a better clay courter then Nole and Fed. But he went downhill fast.

Well, I cant expect you to say anything else about anyone playing in Sampras' era. I would love to hear some reasoning and not only statements.

[latso]

Originally Posted by sexybeast

So, Courier is a "clay monster" and on another cathegory than Bruguera? Up there with Nadal, Borg and Muster. You know they all won +30 clay titles and that Courier won only 5 titles, right?

From the 70s up you also have Nastasse and Vilas who were way superior to Courier on clay and won 70 clay titles between them, so I really dont know where you got in your mind that Courier is one of the 5 giants of this surface? Wouldnt have him in my top 15 list.

You rank Agassi in another cathegory, but they were not far from equals on clay during Courier's prime. Courier just had a slight edge against Agassi when they were young but arguably you could say Agassi in the long run catched up with Courier and achieved almost as much as Courier on clay.

Also, if Federer won another RG I would put him somewhere close to Lendl on clay.

Ask the Mods to make your opinions sticky.

Clearly you consider your opinion as the very truth and others opinions are laughable, so why even having other opinions

Courier was rulling RG for some years and he was as dominant as the guys i mention.

That's my impression and that's what i know for myself.

Your stats are just stats.

Federer winning RG was a fluke and this comes from a fan of the guy. Everybody knows this.
If Rafa doesn't participate Roger might snatch another one somewhere in case he pulls some magic inside outs again against mediocre competition to save his life...and he'd still be near Bruguera category, coz the ruller of this time, on clay is Nadal and that's it.

Just as Courier was absolutely dominant in his time. Agassi never was. He's like Federer a player who adjusted his huge talent for all other kinds of courts to be competitive enough on clay, but that's not a great clay courter.

He's a Milky Way distance better player, but not a greater clay courter.

IMO

[bouncer7]

Originally Posted by Sophocles

It's far enough to say Fed's a greater clay-courter. Djokovic, no - not yet.

not yet LOL who else did won back to back Rome and Madrid over the greatest claycourter ever in only 14 days LOL

[LawrenceOfTennis]

Originally Posted by bouncer7

not yet LOL who else did won back to back Rome and Madrid over the greatest claycourter ever in only 14 days LOL

2 RG > Madrid,Rome

[bouncer7]

Originally Posted by LawrenceOfTennis

2 RG > Madrid,Rome

no matter that, he said djoker is not great claycourter. And probably will finish career with 4x or more clay titles than Courier

[sexybeast]

Originally Posted by latso

Just as Courier was absolutely dominant in his time. Agassi never was. He's like Federer a player who adjusted his huge talent for all other kinds of courts to be competitive enough on clay, but that's not a great clay courter.

He's a Milky Way distance better player, but not a greater clay courter.

IMO

Courier was dominant like Nadal but won only 5 titles on clay?

So, Federer "just adjusted" to clay but the american Courier was born on red claycourts like Nadal in Mallorca?

How is Federer like Agassi? Agassi never played a full clay season, he prepared for RG relaxing on the Miami beaches just hoping he could go in with his flat shots and taking the ball on the rise like on hardcourt.

[HKz]

Originally Posted by bouncer7

no matter that, he said djoker is not great claycourter. And probably will finish career with 4x or more clay titles than Courier

Gee, another Djokotard trying to jump any comment that doesn't say "Novak is #1"

Sophocles didn't say Djokovic wasn't great on clay, clearly it was just a comparison to Courier. Either way, in truth, Djokovic doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence, he has yet to even reach one RG final, who cares about those MS events right now.

Sure, Nadal has prevented Novak from reaching the final of RG several times, but to even make the final was not guaranteed those years he made the SFs against Nadal. Even if he made the final those two years, he would of played against Federer and I doubt Federer would have lost if they met in 2007. 2008 could have gone either way, but I would still give the edge to Federer. Then of course we all know Djokovic hasn't met Nadal since 2008 at RG.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by SetSampras

Courier at his peak in the early 90s? Yes he was a better clay courter then Nole and Fed.

I have to agree with SSS here.

Peak Courier would cream both Nole and Fed on clay, he would not even lose a set if the played doubles against him.

But of course, Courier, Fed and Nole would lose against Sampras in his fabled Rome 94 form, the pinnacle of clay court tennis. Sampras would make it competitive playing against the 3 on the other side of the net at the same time.

Nole and Fed benefit from a weak era. If they played in Sampras era, they would both be slamless, and they would both be Sampras's turkeys.

[Roddickominator]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

I have to agree with SSS here.

Peak Courier would cream both Nole and Fed on clay, he would not even lose a set if the played doubles against him.

Nole and Fed benefit from a weak era. If they played in Sampras era, they would both be slamless, and they would both be Sampras's turkeys.

You are absolutely right. Peak Courier, which unfortunately lasted not very long at all, was an elite clay courter. Better than Roger and Novak for sure. If you're looking at sustained excellence then he obviously isn't your guy, but peak form you will find few better.

[TennisGrandSlam]

Courier is strong forehand,

and also play well in baseline,

but he is not clay expert (like Chang).

[fast_clay]

Originally Posted by sexybeast

Lets look at Courier's final opponents in his 5 big clay finals:

Won against:

Agassi 1991 RG final, Korda in 1992 RG final, Carlos Costa in Rome final 1992, Goran Ivanisevic in Rome final 1993.

Lost against: Sergi Bruguera in 1993 RG final.

So, his only though claycourter in a big clay tournament final was the one he lost to?

Compare with Federer:

Won against: Safin in Hamburg 2002 final, Coria in Hamburg 2004 final, Gasquet in Hamburg 2005 final, Nadal in Hamburg 2007 final, Nadal in Madrid 2009, Soderling in RG 2009.

Lost to: Nadal x 10 between 2006-2011 RG and master series finals and Mantilla 2003 Rome.

Djokovic won against: Nadal in ROme and Madrid 2011, Wawrinka in Rome 2008

Lost to: Nadal x2 (and Nadal x6 in SFs of RG and master series)

I dont know what though opponents Courier was playing on clay, but Ivanisevic, Korda and Agassi in big clay finals doesnt compare to what Djokovic and Federer is facing.

i'm sorry but carlos costa is a high quality finalist at the age... solid top tenner built on clay results