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Old 01-04-2012, 10:52 PM   #76
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

Yes, I do and I am not afraid to admit it :P. But I did like Djoko's game when he was rising up with attacking all-court tennis. Now that has gone to the dogs thanks to slow and homogenized surfaces which is also due to Uncle Mafioso and his butt-picking nephew taking every opportunity to whine about court speeds. So the roots of most of what is wrong with tennis nowadays can be traced to the pig.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:18 AM   #77
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
I was bored and was wondering how often the Big 3 had to beat a top 5 opponent whenever they won a slam. Soooo.....

Djokovic
Slam titles: 4
Top 5 opponents faced: 7
Number of top 5 opponents per title: 1.75

Nadal
Slam titles: 10
Top 5 opponents faced: 13
Number of top 5 opponents per title: 1.3
(NOTE: Nadal faced 6 top 5 opponents during his first 4 slam wins [vs. Djokovic's 7])

Federer
Slam titles: 16
Top 5 opponents he faced: 19
Number of top 5 opponents per title: 1.19
(NOTE: Federer faced 6 top 5 opponents during his first 4 slam wins [vs. Djokovic's 7 & Nadal's 6] and 12 top 5 opponents during his first 10 slam wins [vs. Nadal's 13]. Also, he didn't play a single top 5 seed in two of his slam titles: the 2007 Australian Open [10th slam] & Wimbledon 2009 [15th slam])


Hmmmm....
The "faced" or head-to-head statistic can be a misleading statistic if misused.

As the winner in a slam, how many chances does one have to play 1 of the top 5 seeds? It is at most 2 or 3, 2 if #6 is in one's half, 3 if #5. Let's call it 2.5 players. And that is if all top 5 seeds play to their seeding. If they don't, then it's fewer than 2.5. One simply can't "face" players that either:
  • Are not in one's part of the draw, or
  • Don't achieve results commensurate to their seeding, which could be because the top 5 seeded player had an off day, or the player beating the top 5 seed had a great day, or a combination of both. Depending on one's outlook, one could paint a picture that the competition below 5th seed was stronger, or that some of the top 5 seeded players were weaker, or a combination of both.
Ultimately, the winner will have defeated all of the possible top 5 seeds (4 in the case of these 3 top players) either directly, or indirectly by virtue of beating the player that beat the seed, and the win is all that matters.

Would Rafael Nadal say that Roger Federer's 2009 Roland Garros win was tainted in any way because Robin Soderling beat him and thus Roger didn't have to play him head-to-head? Nonsense, Nadal would simply congratulate Federer in doing what he couldn't do; in the final, Federer beat an on-fire #23 seed Soderling who had mowed down 4 seeds ranked higher than he was.

At Roland Garros 2010, #2 seed Rafael Nadal turned the tables, and beat Robin Soderling (#5 seed 1 year later) in the final, after Mr. Soderling beat #1 seed Mr. Federer in the QF, while #3 seed Mr. Djokovic lost to #22 seed Jürgen Melzer in the QF. So Mr. Nadal didn't have to face #1 Roger Federer or #3 Novak Djokovic, but did directly defeat the players that beat them. I doubt that Mr. Federer or Mr. Djokovic would say that Mr. Nadal won only because he didn't have to face them head-to-head. No, they lost, he won, end of story.

Respectfully,
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:20 AM   #78
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

MIMIC being a spaz again. New year #sameoldshit
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:26 AM   #79
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
I didn't realize this was a Federtard circle jerk forum and every stat had to suggest that he did everything better than everyone else. My apologies.
I guessed you missed out on the 'minor' addition in my comment that your 'statistical evidence' doesn't just downplays Federer, but Nadal, too.

I'm awaiting much fun in the upcoming season, if only for Djokotards like you.
16 > 10 >>>>>>> 4. Sorry, but THAT is the statistic that counts.

Whether it will change, and to what order, remains to be seen.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:36 AM   #80
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
I guessed you missed out on the 'minor' addition in my comment that your 'statistical evidence' doesn't just downplays Federer, but Nadal, too.

I'm awaiting much fun in the upcoming season, if only for Djokotards like you.
16 > 10 >>>>>>> 4. Sorry, but THAT is the statistic that counts.

Whether it will change, and to what order, remains to be seen.
god you're pathetic ....well any person that likes Fed and Nadal in the same time get's like that
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:43 AM   #81
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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god you're pathetic ....well any person that likes Fed and Nadal in the same time get's like that
Sure, honey. Coming from you, it's a compliment.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:20 AM   #82
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

that AO run by Gonzalez was remarkable .Why do you sat Tsonga's was better when GOnzalez's was equally good if not better .The players he beat were

R3 Hewitt -you know how tough it is to beat someone when the crowd supports them fully ,thats why many say of Novak fans say Federer beat Djokovic this year
R4-Blake-he was in a run of form and had just reached the finals of the year end championship
QF-Nadal-no saying here .He would just win Indian wells later beating Novak in the final
SF-Haas-42 winners and 3 unforced errors

Thats a great run definately and he only lost because Federer was at his best ever in that event He definately would have beaten Murray here
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:46 AM   #83
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
It doesn't make the question any less valid, does it? If you want to evaluate the overall level of opposition in each slam, you have to consider all the opponents; not just the ones who fit within the top 5. Your argument is: "well that's too much work". OK, but that's just means we don't reach any conclusions.
All you're going to do is make UNSUBSTANTIATED claims about Djokovic's opponents to detract from his victories, so why even go there? Here: I'll even set it up for you. Let's take a look at Federer, Djokovic's, and Nadal's very first slam and consider ALL the opponents:

Djokovic played: Becker, Bolelli, Querrey, (19)Hewitt, (5)Ferrer, (1)Federer, and Tsonga
Nadal played: Burgsmüller, Malisse, (30)Gasquet, (23)Grosjean, (20)Ferrer, (1)Federer, and Puerta.
Federer played: Lee, Koubek, Fish, Lopez, (8)Schalken, (5)Roddick, and Philippoussis.

Anything jump out at you? How many cripples did Djokovic had to face and how many legends did Federer had to power through? Because as we all know, seed is irrelevant, right?


Quote:
It doesn't mean you can decide arbitrarily, just because you're too lazy to do the actual work (i.e that outside the top 5 there was no difference in the average rank of opponent). In any case you haven't even made any arguments, based on the data you supplied. Data without interpretation is meaningless.
Maybe the concept has escaped you but it's quite possible to set up boundaries for an argument and not jeopardize the conclusion because of what has been omitted. I know you want to include as much superfluous information as possible in an attempt to bury the main argument but I'd rather not indulge in that nonsense.

And here's an argument: Djokovic's faced tougher opponents.

Quote:
So Nadal faced 0.11 more top 5 players per slam than Federer. Great! Do we know how often each player towelled off during the change of ends? Maybe I should present that data in a new thread.
Maybe you should and we'll see how many people care
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:49 AM   #84
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by DrJules View Post
3) An advantage of being seeded 1/2 is you tend to face 7/8 in the quarter final while 3/4 face 5/6 in the quarter final. A higher ranking reduces you chance of facing number 5 in the quarter final.
That isn't true. Unless you're suggesting draws are fixed.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:57 AM   #85
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
All you're going to do is make UNSUBSTANTIATED claims about Djokovic's opponents to detract from his victories, so why even go there? Here: I'll even set it up for you. Let's take a look at Federer, Djokovic's, and Nadal's very first slam and consider ALL the opponents:

Djokovic played: Becker, Bolelli, Querrey, (19)Hewitt, (5)Ferrer, (1)Federer, and Tsonga
Nadal played: Burgsmüller, Malisse, (30)Gasquet, (23)Grosjean, (20)Ferrer, (1)Federer, and Puerta.
Federer played: Lee, Koubek, Fish, Lopez, (8)Schalken, (5)Roddick, and Philippoussis.

Anything jump out at you? How many cripples did Djokovic had to face and how many legends did Federer had to power through? Because as we all know, seed is irrelevant, right?




Maybe the concept has escaped you but it's quite possible to set up boundaries for an argument and not jeopardize the conclusion because of what has been omitted. I know you want to include as much superfluous information as possible in an attempt to bury the main argument but I'd rather not indulge in that nonsense.

And here's an argument: Djokovic's faced tougher opponents.



Maybe you should and we'll see how many people care

Fed's 03 Wimbledon >>> Djokovic's 08 AO

You are absolutely pathetic, like the baby who can't handle being on the ropes in a debate so spins their own take on statistics to try and get one over.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:10 AM   #86
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Fed's 03 Wimbledon >>> Djokovic's 08 AO
Interesting analysis. It's so rock solid and persuasive. You sure you did this independently? IMO, it's too much work for just one person to put three greater than signs in a row like that.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:39 AM   #87
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Fed's 03 Wimbledon >>> Djokovic's 08 AO

You are absolutely pathetic, like the baby who can't handle being on the ropes in a debate so spins their own take on statistics to try and get one over.
you just failed man.....and you were doing good for the long time
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:24 AM   #88
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Default Re: Fed/Rafa/Djoker: how often they've faced the top 5

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
I guessed you missed out on the 'minor' addition in my comment that your 'statistical evidence' doesn't just downplays Federer, but Nadal, too.

I'm awaiting much fun in the upcoming season, if only for Djokotards like you.
16 > 10 >>>>>>> 4. Sorry, but THAT is the statistic that counts.

Whether it will change, and to what order, remains to be seen.
Sorry karin, but I have to correct on this one because you are being biased when making the maths.

16>>>>>>>10>>>>>>>4 because 16-10=10-4
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