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View Poll Results: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the Austra

Yes – bigotry is simply unacceptable 37 41.57%
No – Court has the freedom of expression 52 58.43%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-22-2011, 12:33 AM   #151
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by fmolinari2005 View Post
People are not perfect, despite the impression one might have of reading some people's post in here. What Margaret said was dead wrong and she should be criticized for it. Period.

However, can you imagine if we start stripping off names of places because the persons that were honored with it showed some flaws of carachter?! Walk around in your city and research the lifes of the guys that have places, streets and etc named after them. Actually, I ask the following question: name important figures of the past that you cannot find some skelletons in their closets.
Yeah there are loads of pieces of shit who have been falsely idolised.

But what's this 'skeletons in the closet' thing? Margaret Court doesn't have a skeleton in a closet, she has a stupid bigoted hate-filled narrow-minded ignorant viewpoint that she's expressed as a public figure. Screw her and her achievements, who gives a fuck.

I couldn't give a shit about 'skeletons in the closet'. Skeletons in the closet is when you build up these false idols and then we get some bullshit collective shock because they did drugs, or cheated, or some stupid shit, or they liked to have a nice big turd in their mouth for pleasure... who gives a fuck about any of that? That's the sensationalised garbage that we usually get in the media, and hear complaints from various family and religious and moral authorities who would most likely AGREE with Margaret Court has said. Fuck them.

We ought to care when people say bigoted shit and they are public figures, who benefit from that status. Whether you like it or not, Margaret Court will always have this associated with her. Sticking with the name is not an active endorsement of her views, but it is complicity. That's bad.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:42 AM   #152
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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With all due respect, Sophocles, this world you are describing exists only in theory - in the pages of philosophy textbooks; this is not reality and never will be.

The reality is people are affected by words and bullying; younger people hear words and see no reaction (because everyone is "not dignifying it with a response" as you'd have people do) and they assume such hateful attitudes are normal and acceptable, and so it continues. Someone yells bigoted insults at another person in the street and everyone pulls up their collar and quickens their step and pretends not to notice so they don't have to do anything about it.

Then it goes from words to little gestures and acts of omission: a couple is ignored in a restaurant for 40 minutes while the staff serve people who arrived much later than them -- "oh, it was an oversight, we're just busy..."even though the waitstaff are sneering and snickering openly. There are lots of such ways you can discriminate against people without doing anything overt that they can prove, and then just insist that the other party is paranoid. And then you pair that with people being allowed to say whatever they want and you wonder why young people feel bullied and like they have no options, and take their own lives.

Margaret Court has the right to voice her opinion but she does not have 'the right to be honoured.' That's not a right. Is it bullying to "out" people with prejudiced hateful views and subject them to societal scorn?? Yes, it is, but so what? Turnabout is fair play. Think of all the centuries that blacks, Jews (look up the origin of the term "ghetto" sometime), gays, even women, could be openly scorned with no right of redress. So now it's the bigots' turn to be bullied. It'd be nice if we as a species could give up bullying altogether, but looking at thousands of years of human history, this doesn't seem likely.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:54 AM   #153
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

I believe it's a generational thing. Ask any 70 or 80 year old about this subject and they'll likely be of the same opinion as Court. It's not because they're consciously discriminating against a type of person but it's because that's their experience in their generation, they were more conservative back then. Court simply has a platform to voice her opinion and is more known than the average grandparent.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:02 AM   #154
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

To all the people saying "the court was named after her for her achievements in tennis so they shouldn't change it" would you still use this logic if it turned out she was a pedophile/serial killer/everything terrible under the sun?

You can argue they shouldn't change the name of the court but the "only tennis achievements matter" logic doesn't really stand up. When you name a court after someone their actions and behaviour outside of tennis do matter. So then the question becomes, does her view on homosexuality sufficiently tarnish her character to warrant removing her name?

In my opinion, not yet. However, if she continues being vocal in her outdated views then Tennis Australia should do everything they can do disasscoiate themselves from her or else they run the risk of being seen to tacitly approve of her behaviour.

Last edited by Arakasi : 12-22-2011 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:05 AM   #155
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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To all the people saying "the court was named after her for her achievements in tennis so they shouldn't change it" would you still use this logic if it turned out she was a pedophile/serial killer/everything terrible under the sun?
Are you equating someone who has a controversial opinion about something with Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy?
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:11 AM   #156
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by stewietennis View Post
I believe it's a generational thing. Ask any 70 or 80 year old about this subject and they'll likely be of the same opinion as Court.
There has been plenty activism from the gay movement in the past 50 years or so to even make older people open their minds. It's the stubborn and stupid of any age to not do so.

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It's not because they're consciously discriminating against a type of person but it's because that's their experience in their generation, they were more conservative back then. Court simply has a platform to voice her opinion and is more known than the average grandparent.
Uhm. Court is most definitely discriminating against an entire group of people, because she's a believer, even active in some kind of a church that states that gays are inferior sinners. Or something the like. Whatever, it's despicable.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:16 AM   #157
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Are you equating someone who has a controversial opinion about something with Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy?
No, I'm just using hyperbole to show the flaws in the "only tennis matters" reasoning.

Either you believe that only tennis matters, in which case everything from a controversial opinion to a penchant for killing is one and the same in its irrelevance. Or, you think things outside of tennis do matter and then it just becomes a case of assessing the magnitude of the actions in question.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:58 AM   #158
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by Yolita View Post
This is precisely the reason why places should only be named after dead people, a few years after their deaths, so that all the relevant facts about the person to be honoured would be known to the people deciding.

Of course they would all have flaws, but they would be known and determined whether they were imporatant enough to merit a veto. This would save a lot of embarrasment. I'm sure Tennis Australia cannot be pleased about this turn of events, whatever their views on homosexuality and gay marriage. Notoriety and controversy are never welcome.
I am sorry to say but even naming shit after dead people won't save us from it. Specially if you consider that in the past it was much easier to hide things from the public eye. Look ... people can bring up problematic issues on the life of Ghandi, Madre Teresa and whoever. I've read a couple of articles debating if Ghandi had racial issues against african people for example. Bigotry is an issue that permeates humans. The main difference is the exposure level of today's public personas.


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Yeah there are loads of pieces of shit who have been falsely idolised.

But what's this 'skeletons in the closet' thing? Margaret Court doesn't have a skeleton in a closet, she has a stupid bigoted hate-filled narrow-minded ignorant viewpoint that she's expressed as a public figure. Screw her and her achievements, who gives a fuck.

I couldn't give a shit about 'skeletons in the closet'. Skeletons in the closet is when you build up these false idols and then we get some bullshit collective shock because they did drugs, or cheated, or some stupid shit, or they liked to have a nice big turd in their mouth for pleasure... who gives a fuck about any of that? That's the sensationalised garbage that we usually get in the media, and hear complaints from various family and religious and moral authorities who would most likely AGREE with Margaret Court has said. Fuck them.

We ought to care when people say bigoted shit and they are public figures, who benefit from that status. Whether you like it or not, Margaret Court will always have this associated with her. Sticking with the name is not an active endorsement of her views, but it is complicity. That's bad.
The problem I see is: where should we draw the line?! The issue, for me, is that the tendency of seeing things in black in white. Either something is bad or good. The problem is: who decides what is good or bad. And in what terms?! Sometimes this rationale of trying to delete whatever might be associated with something that goes against what is the currently accepted way of seeing things sounds to me like trying to edit history.

A better way, IMO, is not editing history by deleting whatever might make us uncomfortable. Because who knows what this tred might lead us into. Should we open this precedent?! A better solution would be, for example, they holding some event during the AO to raise awareness against prejudice towards gay people. The problem when you start editing history is that you never know in which hands the scissor will end up with. Now you might agree with what they are deleting. But what about in the future?!
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:02 AM   #159
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Yeah, change the name. No reason why players, coaches, fans especially those who are LGBT should have to be associated with this horseshit.

The people arguing that this is anti free-speech or that it shouldn't be political. That argument in itself is political. Either way, what do you care? It doesn't bother you. So let the people who are pissed off have the 'right' to complain and change things, in the same way that Margaret Court had a platform as a public figure to express her views, according to her 'right', right?

Tennis is not bigger than politics or bigotry. Never will be.
As an Australian, I am against changing the name - Court is a legend of the sport despite being a bible-humping religious zealot. She has right to say whatever she wants and as far as I know this country still practices free speech. The arena name is a homage to her achievements in tennis not her political or religious views, if members of LGBT community feel this strongly about a simple name of the court, perhaps they should vote with their wallets and boycott AO? (We all know this won't happen).
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:04 AM   #160
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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A better way, IMO, is not editing history by deleting whatever might make us uncomfortable. Because who knows what this tred might lead us into. Should we open this precedent?! A better solution would be, for example, they holding some event during the AO to raise awareness against prejudice towards gay people. The problem when you start editing history is that you never know in which hands the scissor will end up with. Now you might agree with what they are deleting. But what about in the future?!
Interesting point indeed.
My own country holds several 'national hero's' from the past who would in modern times be regarded as bloody pirates and slave-drivers...
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:07 AM   #161
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Interesting point indeed.
My own country holds several 'national hero's' from the past who would in modern times be regarded as bloody pirates and slave-drivers...
History favors heroes, rather than madmen. Society needs more of former than the latter, no matter what crimes they commited.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:18 AM   #162
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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No, I'm just using hyperbole to show the flaws in the "only tennis matters" reasoning.

Either you believe that only tennis matters, in which case everything from a controversial opinion to a penchant for killing is one and the same in its irrelevance. Or, you think things outside of tennis do matter and then it just becomes a case of assessing the magnitude of the actions in question.
It's not really hyperbole, more like reductio ad absurdum but anyway that's the kind of view that says jaywalkers get the same jail sentence as bank robbers.

Who draws the line of what is acceptable and where? No one's perfect, if Court was convicted of anything in your previous examples, sure the venue should be renamed, but having an opinion is not a crime.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:05 AM   #163
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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Originally Posted by stewietennis View Post
It's not really hyperbole, more like reductio ad absurdum
I know but I was trying to prevent this becoming a philosophical debate.

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if Court was convicted of anything in your previous examples, sure the venue should be renamed, but having an opinion is not a crime.
That is fair enough. Perhaps I shouldn't have used crimes as examples.

Consider this instead, say Court had come out and said that Australians are sub-human and shouldn't be allowed to reproduce (ignoring the fact that she herself is Australian). Everyone would be calling for her name to removed from the court even if it is just "an opinion".

I'm using extreme examples but what I'm trying to prove is that an opinion can be sufficient cause to strip the court of her name, despite her tennis achievements. I'm not saying that this particular opinion in question warrants it.

For me this has nothing to do with "punishing" Court. She has the right to say whatever she wants. It's more about whether Tennis Australia wants to be associated with her or not.
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:06 AM   #164
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

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That argument is flawed because drug testing is in direct link to the possible validity of one's athletic achievement
sorry your losing me, what exactly does RECREATIONAL drugs have to do with the validity of an athletic achievement?
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:11 AM   #165
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Default Re: Should Tennis Australia change the name of the Margaret Court show court @ the AO

Wonder why Court is so serious about this? Of course there is her religious beliefs and all that but perhaps she experienced the tennis scene in the 60's as very disturbing to her? There were loads and loads of lesbians during that time in the locker rooms and around the tournaments. Propably saw some harassment going on? Maybe she found it very distressing and odd and that has affected her later in life?

Court's tennis achievements are actually quite overrated. She really played during a weak era and won Aussie Open when it was closer to a challenger. Only King was young and dangerous during that time. If Court would have been 10 years older, she would have won maybe three slams.
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