TT changes 2012 - Page 4 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 12-13-2011, 06:14 PM   #46
country flag AdeyC
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
AdeyC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 14,148
AdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
I guess my response would be - so what? Of course managers will pick their friends or someone from the country where the tournament is being held. But its only one spot. In a game. Its not a life or death decision. It may even reintroduce an element of fun to TT that old timers seem to think is lacking now compared to years ago, where you have more interaction in the threads and fun banter. The wildcard period could be open for a week and produce some amusing conversations, posters making arguments for their candidacy for the wildcard etc... People loved the interviews Marto did at the US Open, and the few managers that still do awards see it is usually well received as a fun aside in TT. I think a wildcard could introduce more of that "fun" aspect to the game. I would certainly base my personal decision as a manager not on friendship, but recent form, nationality, witty arguments etc...
You're selling the idea well with that paragraph I must say

I definitely agree that there can be some fun/fact based elements added to some events - I'd been basically a lurker who played MTT for about 2 years and then decided I'd put something back into the game and decided to host an event and then I put the first few of my many ideas into the first event I hosted to see how well they'd go down - basically did a few of the things that I'd have liked to see in an event I was playing in, enjoyed doing it and volunteered to do more.
__________________
You can contact me on my TF Account or adriancollins@hotmail.com. I rarely log on here anymore
AdeyC is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 12-13-2011, 06:36 PM   #47
country flag erickmartins
Not exactly average.
 
erickmartins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Coventry
Age: 28
Posts: 1,035
erickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

But let's say a manager takes two ATPs per month, and gives all the wildcards to the same person. Would you punish that? If so, how? Where do you draw the line?

Of course if we could be sure that all TT managers forever will have some common sense and try to give wildcards to "reasonable" choices (upcoming players from the country where the tournament is, stuff like that) and not concentrate them in half a dozen friends, that would be a nice idea. But we all know that trusting people to be reasonable is not itself reasonable. So if you bring that into the game, some repressive apparatus would have to be brought also. And then it's more rules.
__________________
TT Rankings - Singles: 292 (best 13) / Doubles: 271 (best 165)

Titles: Astana 2 CH '11, Challenger Tour Finals '11, Kuala Lumpur '12 (w/Dudisela75), Bressuire Futures '13 (w/Marita)

Finals: Fürth CH '11, Orleans CH '11, Petange CH '12, TT Euro '12 (w/Vilnietè)

SF: Australian Open '12, Memphis '12
erickmartins is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 09:08 PM   #48
country flag Thunderfish8
Registered User
 
Thunderfish8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,983
Thunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by erickmartins View Post
But let's say a manager takes two ATPs per month, and gives all the wildcards to the same person. Would you punish that? If so, how? Where do you draw the line?

Of course if we could be sure that all TT managers forever will have some common sense and try to give wildcards to "reasonable" choices (upcoming players from the country where the tournament is, stuff like that) and not concentrate them in half a dozen friends, that would be a nice idea. But we all know that trusting people to be reasonable is not itself reasonable. So if you bring that into the game, some repressive apparatus would have to be brought also. And then it's more rules.
how about each player is limited to one WC over the course of the year... there are roughly 300 players and only 200 could possibly need wildcards (1-50 don't need for ATP and 100-150 don't need for challengers). In fact the ratio of players needing wildcards to tournaments is probably about 2:3 so naturally most players will get ONE wildcard
this also would not be hard to keep track of because somebody would just keep a running list of who got WC and who didn't

if done that way, i think the WC idea could be very fun and add an extra twist to the game
__________________
Gulbis Ferrer Wawrinka
Isner Nadal Mahut Dimitrov Istomin Tsonga B. Baker

Berdych Monaco Granollers Troicki Roger-Vasselin Lu Paire

PAW Titles: Brisbane 2012 & 2014
FITD Titles: Marseille 2014
Tennis Tipping Titles
Singles: Orleans CH '11, Tampere CH '12, Medellin CH '12
Doubles: Noumea CH '13 w/ Chirag, Cherbourg CH '14 w/ BMT360
Thunderfish8 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2011, 09:09 PM   #49
country flag Thunderfish8
Registered User
 
Thunderfish8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,983
Thunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

also, if this rule is implemented, one way to control it would be to force players to request a WC when committing rather than once they've realized that they need to qualify or that they are an alternate. if that person doesn't end up needing a WC, then they won't receive it
__________________
Gulbis Ferrer Wawrinka
Isner Nadal Mahut Dimitrov Istomin Tsonga B. Baker

Berdych Monaco Granollers Troicki Roger-Vasselin Lu Paire

PAW Titles: Brisbane 2012 & 2014
FITD Titles: Marseille 2014
Tennis Tipping Titles
Singles: Orleans CH '11, Tampere CH '12, Medellin CH '12
Doubles: Noumea CH '13 w/ Chirag, Cherbourg CH '14 w/ BMT360
Thunderfish8 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 11:37 AM   #50
country flag ibreak4coffee
Moderator
 
ibreak4coffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 6,575
ibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by erickmartins View Post
But let's say a manager takes two ATPs per month, and gives all the wildcards to the same person. Would you punish that? If so, how? Where do you draw the line?

Of course if we could be sure that all TT managers forever will have some common sense and try to give wildcards to "reasonable" choices (upcoming players from the country where the tournament is, stuff like that) and not concentrate them in half a dozen friends, that would be a nice idea. But we all know that trusting people to be reasonable is not itself reasonable. So if you bring that into the game, some repressive apparatus would have to be brought also. And then it's more rules.
Look again I realize the idea is going nowhere. So dont get too worried.

But frankly abuse of the system by a dishonest manager - there are so many other (serious) ways that a manager could help his friends or be unreasonable or cheat or conspire against a certain player they dont like just in the course of managing in TT that if you worry about wildcards as being beyond something we could trust to a manager, then I dont understand how you are comfortable with them making draws, posting diffs etc... where all managers need to be taken at their word as to their integrity
ibreak4coffee is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 02:05 PM   #51
country flag Thunderfish8
Registered User
 
Thunderfish8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,983
Thunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond reputeThunderfish8 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
Look again I realize the idea is going nowhere. So dont get too worried.

But frankly abuse of the system by a dishonest manager - there are so many other (serious) ways that a manager could help his friends or be unreasonable or cheat or conspire against a certain player they dont like just in the course of managing in TT that if you worry about wildcards as being beyond something we could trust to a manager, then I dont understand how you are comfortable with them making draws, posting diffs etc... where all managers need to be taken at their word as to their integrity
Again, I think the manager corruption could be limited by only allowing one WC per year for each player.
__________________
Gulbis Ferrer Wawrinka
Isner Nadal Mahut Dimitrov Istomin Tsonga B. Baker

Berdych Monaco Granollers Troicki Roger-Vasselin Lu Paire

PAW Titles: Brisbane 2012 & 2014
FITD Titles: Marseille 2014
Tennis Tipping Titles
Singles: Orleans CH '11, Tampere CH '12, Medellin CH '12
Doubles: Noumea CH '13 w/ Chirag, Cherbourg CH '14 w/ BMT360
Thunderfish8 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 02:24 PM   #52
country flag erickmartins
Not exactly average.
 
erickmartins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Coventry
Age: 28
Posts: 1,035
erickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond reputeerickmartins has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
Look again I realize the idea is going nowhere. So dont get too worried.

But frankly abuse of the system by a dishonest manager - there are so many other (serious) ways that a manager could help his friends or be unreasonable or cheat or conspire against a certain player they dont like just in the course of managing in TT that if you worry about wildcards as being beyond something we could trust to a manager, then I dont understand how you are comfortable with them making draws, posting diffs etc... where all managers need to be taken at their word as to their integrity
That's actually something I've never thought about before. Call me naive

But all other kinds of cheating a manager could do would still depend on the results of the matches to be successful, while WC "cheating" depends only on the manager. Of course the "2 WCs per month" scenario I presented would never happen, but it was more a limit case to say that WC choices would eventually cause some raised eyebrows and claims that a manager was biased. That would not be good neither to the managers nor to the players.
__________________
TT Rankings - Singles: 292 (best 13) / Doubles: 271 (best 165)

Titles: Astana 2 CH '11, Challenger Tour Finals '11, Kuala Lumpur '12 (w/Dudisela75), Bressuire Futures '13 (w/Marita)

Finals: Fürth CH '11, Orleans CH '11, Petange CH '12, TT Euro '12 (w/Vilnietè)

SF: Australian Open '12, Memphis '12
erickmartins is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2011, 02:33 PM   #53
country flag AdeyC
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
AdeyC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 14,148
AdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by erickmartins View Post
Call me naive
I was thinking exactly the same thing.

The draw maker makes the draw - the OOP is made and picks placed - differences posted so everyone can see what they are.
__________________
You can contact me on my TF Account or adriancollins@hotmail.com. I rarely log on here anymore
AdeyC is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 07:57 AM   #54
country flag abollo
Tennis Player
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cairo
Posts: 5,557
abollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Ok once again I am asking and I'm hoping for an answer. How will the changes be decided? Last year as far as I remember there was no voting for anything. Will there be this year?
And again I raise my points once again especially the third point

Quote:
1- TB rules (Shootout/PTS, etc)
I would prefer to cancel the shootour rule and use the TB system like in TF. I think a winner of the match should be decided by who was better. Now we have that if A posted the OOP I would have won if B posted it I would have lost. The 2/1 2/0 rule in TF makes more sense. If still tied then the PTS should be considered. However I think if a match ends 63 64 and I have it 63 64 and another 64 63 I should win. I think it actually makes a difference if you hit the exact score in the exact set or not. The GD rule is fine as it is.

2- LEs for SEs

I think LEs shouldn't be allowed a SE. For example if I played in lowCH and reached the final and commited for lowCH the following week, I would withdraw and get a SE in the highCH that week and probably take someone's place.

3- Using same points as ATP with 1 year transition like explained here
Like 4-5 people favored this idea, so I think seeing a vote here would be the best
__________________
Es irrt der Mensch so lang er strebt
Roger Federer .. Malek Jaziri
abollo is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 09:45 AM   #55
country flag AdeyC
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
AdeyC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 14,148
AdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by abollo View Post
Ok once again I am asking and I'm hoping for an answer. How will the changes be decided? Last year as far as I remember there was no voting for anything. Will there be this year?
Yes I'd like to enquire whether there is any element of democracy involved here too?
__________________
You can contact me on my TF Account or adriancollins@hotmail.com. I rarely log on here anymore
AdeyC is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 12:24 PM   #56
country flag Vilnietė
Registered User
 
Vilnietė's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Europe
Age: 27
Posts: 2,720
Vilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond reputeVilnietė has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

It was explained that the same points as ATP would not working well for TT because luck is playing much bigger role here and (more important) because unlike in ATP here you have to defeat almost the same players in most events. To win 250 series event you have to defeat similar players as in grand slam, so wining GS isn't realy 8 times more difficult as wining 250 pts event. So It wouldn't be "fair" to make such big point differences between the tournaments. And if anyone cares about new players, such big differences would make it very difficult to earn some good ranking for them.

So it would be nice to hear some opinions on this from people who still insist on changing pts system.
__________________
Ričardas Berankis Laurynas Grigelis Lukas Mugevičius
Vilnietė is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 01:12 PM   #57
country flag abollo
Tennis Player
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cairo
Posts: 5,557
abollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond reputeabollo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilnietė View Post
It was explained that the same points as ATP would not working well for TT because luck is playing much bigger role here and (more important) because unlike in ATP here you have to defeat almost the same players in most events.
Yes, but I thought if the majority wants to change the points system, it should be changed and that should be done by a vote.
There is no luck in winning in TT. Only good picks win here!! That's why the top players are not easy to defeat. We don't see someone winning a big tournament and then losing in the first round all the following tournaments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilnietė View Post
To win 250 series event you have to defeat similar players as in grand slam, so wining GS isn't realy 8 times more difficult as wining 250 pts event. So It wouldn't be "fair" to make such big point differences between the tournaments.
What about the ATP? They are the same players!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilnietė View Post
And if anyone cares about new players, such big differences would make it very difficult to earn some good ranking for them. So it would be nice to hear some opinions on this from people who still insist on changing pts system.
Good players would have a better chance here. Check how many players came from NR to crack the top100 this year maybe 2-4. While if we have the ATP system it would become easier to get into the top100.


I mean why don't you let people vote and see what the majority wants?!
__________________
Es irrt der Mensch so lang er strebt
Roger Federer .. Malek Jaziri
abollo is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 01:21 PM   #58
country flag AdeyC
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
AdeyC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 14,148
AdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond reputeAdeyC has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by abollo View Post
There is no luck in winning in TT. Only good picks win here!! That's why the top players are not easy to defeat. We don't see someone winning a big tournament and then losing in the first round all the following tournaments.



What about the ATP? They are the same players!!!



Good players would have a better chance here. Check how many players came from NR to crack the top100 this year maybe 2-4. While if we have the ATP system it would become easier to get into the top100.


I mean why don't you let people vote and see what the majority wants?!
Surely there should be a list of all the points raised - and then people should have the option to vote on them, otherwise I can't see what's the point of raising issues in this thread in the first place?
__________________
You can contact me on my TF Account or adriancollins@hotmail.com. I rarely log on here anymore
AdeyC is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 01:33 PM   #59
country flag Taz Warrior
Registered User
 
Taz Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,034
Taz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

The Board are currently collating all the opinions raised in this thread on each point and polls will be raised for the areas where it appears change might be required.
Taz Warrior is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 01:40 PM   #60
country flag Taz Warrior
Registered User
 
Taz Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,034
Taz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond reputeTaz Warrior has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdeyC View Post
Surely there should be a list of all the points raised - and then people should have the option to vote on them, otherwise I can't see what's the point of raising issues in this thread in the first place?
This thread is used as a discussion thread for anything that people might want changing in the game. It is used to put forward proposals, ideas and suggestions which people can debate and as a way of finding out if a particular idea has any support within the TT community or to discuss arguments for and against any particular ideas. The last few years this thread has been a lot quieter than the first few years and we (the board) are currently discussing whether this is because most of the major flaws have been ironed out and there’s not many major changes required or whether because the Board is a lot quieter in the off-season now and whether we should be looking at opening the thread earlier during the season with any changes still implemented the following season.
Taz Warrior is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios