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Old 12-05-2011, 08:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Ideally yes, but I really don't know what those would be. I am concerned about the # of managers for 2012 - I don't intend to run 16 tournaments next year and without Goldenoldie either I think it may become a problem and we may have to reduce the number of events due to lack of managers.
I shall be intending to do two a month from now on as I enjoyed doing it.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

I remember getting pissed in one of the GSs this year, not sure which one though.. The thing was, in the qualifying draw in the 1st round there were plenty of matches where neither player sent pick and they were replaced by ALTs, and often those ALTs then got directly in the 2nd round, while the players who have committed in time had to play normally to get in the R2. It was like it's better to be an ALT because you have a bigger chance to get a bye. Don't know if that's changed, but if not, it definitely should be.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:16 AM   #18
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by abollo
- Two-day round (mostly for increased qualifying draws): Should a LL replace a player/team who has a bye to the second round but doesn't send picks for any of the rounds?

No. This will make it difficult for managers as they will receive a lot of picks from losers in the first round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marto

No. This will make it difficult for managers as they will receive a lot of picks from losers in the first round.
- Two-day round (mostly for increased qualifying draws): Should a LL replace a player/team who has a bye to the second round but doesn't send picks for any of the rounds?

I meant in special cases when both first & second rounds are played on the same day, which was the case when this topic was raised. There wouldn't be any additional picks to be received.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abollo
- 'Future' tournaments instead of increased QDs?

What are increased QDs . We currently have 32s only
Our standard qualifying draws have 16 players each. The increased draws have 32 players, who must win three matches to qualify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobs View Post
Ideally it would be but I think the transition would be a nightmare for the Gav who does the weekly rankings....
This isn't the reason we didn't change our ranking system. The current scoring system is the same ATP used until 2008, but with increased qualifying (for some categories) & challenger points. Increasing challenger points has always been one of the main topics of the TT off-seasons, and the ATP 2009 system made smaller tournaments (Chs & ATP 250) even less important. When the ATP points were changed, almost nobody voted for changing the TT points. Since we thought the previous system was better, no changes were made and the transition terms/problems weren't discussed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abollo
a 200 ranked player who would get into the MD of CH and qualy or AlT to a 250 needs to win 2 matches in the ATP tournament to get 10 points, while with his 2 wins in the CH he would get 21 points.
Current ATP points: a 250 qualification gives 12 points & a 125+K Ch QF gives 25 points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marto
Why there are no points for winning a match in qualification
Because ATP doesn't points for winning qualifying matches and there have never been strong opinions to change this rule in TT.
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Old 12-06-2011, 03:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

My thoughts in red:

- LL rule on R1 matches where neither player send picks: should the 2nd round spot go directly to the LL? Current rule: the player who sends late picks first wins the match.

If there are LLs: Yes, absolutely. I'd prefer not having late picks counted under any circumstances.

- Two-day round (mostly for increased qualifying draws): Should a LL replace a player/team who has a bye to the second round but doesn't send picks for any of the rounds?

Yes. Anyone who doesn't send picks shouldn't have a chance to play - and vice versa, as many players as possible who actually sent picks should be in the draw.

- Top 30 players: should they be eligible to get SEs into CHs?

No.

- Should there be any incentives for managers (the number of managers is decreasing each year)? If yes, any suggestions?

I don't think so, no. I don't think that people who'd manage for some kind of reward would be able to keep the high level of managing that is offered now by nearly every manager (who does it for the game).

- Early deadlines: should the current rule be changed?

No. If early deadlines are pronounced early and clearly enough, they are fine.

- Code of conduct: any updates/changes? What should be done to the 'Foul language' item?

No opinion on that

- Entries: double commitments & LEs - suggestions to improve the current system? Problems: a) players are added to two lists in the same week, taking MD/Q spots from other players; b) a player who withdraws from a tourmanet and commits to another tournament must be a LE, but might get a regular entry (the tournament change isn't always noticed).

I think the only way to point that one out is having a commitment thread as in PAW. I actually think that would be a good thing - it would mean less work for all the managers, and it is not that hard to update the entry lists with all commitments in the same thread.

- Alternate placements - matches in which neither player sent & the first alternate is better ranked than other players whose opponents didn't send picks: where should the next alternate be placed - against the first alternate or the lowest ranked player who entered directly?

Against the first alternate.

- Winston-Salem (64-player tournament which precedes the USO): should it start on Sunday (current rule) or Monday (which would be a two-day round)?

Monday, that would be much easier for all the players.

- 'Future' tournaments instead of increased QDs?

Yes (if the used futures are updated regularly with OOP and results, I often experience that there are ones with late or only few updates on the official site(s)).

- One category for all challenger (120 pt breakdown)?

No, that's fine as it is.

One thing more: I think the ranking point system should stay as it is. There is so much luck involved in TT and players don't need to schedule their tournaments properly, skipping the smaller ones, that winning a GS isn't worth as much as 8 MM titles. There are the same players participating, using the same effort, so that winning a "small" title isn't that much easier than winning a GS title.
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by keqtqiadv View Post
[b]This isn't the reason we didn't change our ranking system. The current scoring system is the same ATP used until 2008, but with increased qualifying (for some categories) & challenger points. Increasing challenger points has always been one of the main topics of the TT off-seasons, and the ATP 2009 system made smaller tournaments (Chs & ATP 250) even less important. When the ATP points were changed, almost nobody voted for changing the TT points. Since we thought the previous system was better, no changes were made and the transition terms/problems weren't discussed.
Yes, this is exactly why the points are as they currently are. I would be against a change in the ranking points system to bring into line with the ATP as I believe the TT points breakdown is much fairer for lower ranked players. If the ATP system was followed it would be much harder for new players to breakthrough without a big GS result.
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:46 PM   #21
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

- LL rule on R1 matches where neither player send picks: should the 2nd round spot go directly to the LL? Current rule: the player who sends late picks first wins the match.

There should be a Lucky Loser


- Two-day round (mostly for increased qualifying draws): Should a LL replace a player/team who has a bye to the second round but doesn't send picks for any of the rounds?


If they didn't send for Round 2 as well player should be replaced

- Top 30 players: should they be eligible to get SEs into CHs?

I personally don't care


- Should there be any incentives for managers (the number of managers is decreasing each year)? If yes, any suggestions?

Yes! Managing needs to become popular - there have to be some "prizes" such as Wildcards - therefore the board would have to select tournaments where a manager could apply for a WC (e.g. all Masters 1000 and GS's --> 2 spots for Masters and 4 for GS)If those spots are not going to be taken Alternates can still move into the Main Draw. Each manager would be allowed to get 2 WC entries! I'm sure more managers would be found if they get a reward!

- Early deadlines: should the current rule be changed?

Yes! There will be more managers - in some cases the manager has to leave before start of play due to personal reasons - if he/she has the opportunity to set an early deadline he/she will think of managing although being busy with other things...


- Code of conduct: any updates/changes? What should be done to the 'Foul language' item?

Yes! Ban players for disrespect towards managers


- Alternate placements - matches in which neither player sent & the first alternate is better ranked than other players whose opponents didn't send picks: where should the next alternate be placed - against the first alternate or the lowest ranked player who entered directly?

I always placed them as the opponent of the lowest ranked player but I guess we shout place them randomly...

- Winston-Salem (64-player tournament which precedes the USO): should it start on Sunday (current rule) or Monday (which would be a two-day round)?

Monday - e.g FITD: many players forget that tournament starts Sunday

Challengers WTF topics (if the event is actually going to be played next year ):

- WTF Challengers - any changes to the points breakdown?


No

- WTF Challengers & WTF - should players be allowed to play both competitions?

No

- WTF Challengers - which should be the deadline for qualifications?

2 weeks before tournament

Other possible topics:

- 'Future' tournaments instead of increased QDs?

Future should be used only when we don't have challengers, like week 2 and 3 in January! Those matches are really hard to predict!

- One category for all challengers (120 pt breakdown)?

No

- Anything you wish to discuss

I already mentioned to use Wildcards for players next year.
We could form a board consisting of selected players who decide which player gets a WC for a tournament...
Therefore every player would have to write an explanation why he/she should be awarded a WC - players outside the Top 100 would have a chance to play in big events as well....

Maximum 3 WC's per season and 2 WC spots per tournament....

In addition I don't understand the TT ranking system - why don't we use the same amount of Points like in real life tennis?
For example ATP250: 250, 150, 90, 45, 20
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:21 PM   #22
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Man WCs really come up every year without fail.

I don't have many opinions on what should change because I think TT as a whole is mostly good. I'd just like to offer a counter-argument to the fact that there needs to be some sort of manager incentive and a lot of people are putting forward WCs as an idea. I used to manage tournaments before my work schedule made it impossible. If something was going to lure me out of managing retirement (of which regrettably, nothing can do ), it's not going to be a WC. I'm a top 10 player, I can enter any tournament I want already. What good does a WC do for me? So then you start thinking of what else you can offer managers and.... there isn't really anything else. A WC for a manager is only useful if we are only courting managers that are lower ranked, and while I agree that it would be appealing to them, its not really fair to higher ranked managers who then are not getting any sort of "reward".

And that's why I feel that can never really be a viable option
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

I agree with Jess...if I have the time, I try to manage...if I can't, I can't.
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:29 AM   #24
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by savesthedizzle View Post
Man WCs really come up every year without fail.

I don't have many opinions on what should change because I think TT as a whole is mostly good. I'd just like to offer a counter-argument to the fact that there needs to be some sort of manager incentive and a lot of people are putting forward WCs as an idea. I used to manage tournaments before my work schedule made it impossible. If something was going to lure me out of managing retirement (of which regrettably, nothing can do ), it's not going to be a WC. I'm a top 10 player, I can enter any tournament I want already. What good does a WC do for me? So then you start thinking of what else you can offer managers and.... there isn't really anything else. A WC for a manager is only useful if we are only courting managers that are lower ranked, and while I agree that it would be appealing to them, its not really fair to higher ranked managers who then are not getting any sort of "reward".

And that's why I feel that can never really be a viable option
10% bonus for the points you received on the week you manage? Really not a good idea I just throw that out

How about: WTF/Challenger Tour Final Wild-cards awarded for managers who managed at least 4 tournaments? In addition to the # of players that automatically enter the tournaments, managers who managed at least 4 CH/FU tournaments per year are allowed to receive a WC for CH Tour Final and managers who managed at least 4 Tour level tournaments per year are allowed to receive a WC for WTF?

Wild cards are awarded on top of the existing entry lists and cannot be replaced by ALTs. Additional ranking points should be awarded for positions after 8 or 16 and scale down accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolyBri View Post
- Entries: double commitments & LEs - suggestions to improve the current system? Problems: a) players are added to two lists in the same week, taking MD/Q spots from other players; b) a player who withdraws from a tourmanet and commits to another tournament must be a LE, but might get a regular entry (the tournament change isn't always noticed).

I think the only way to point that one out is having a commitment thread as in PAW. I actually think that would be a good thing - it would mean less work for all the managers, and it is not that hard to update the entry lists with all commitments in the same thread.
Wow someone is with me on this!
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:18 AM   #25
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfish1103 View Post
10% bonus for the points you received on the week you manage? Really not a good idea I just throw that out

How about: WTF/Challenger Tour Final Wild-cards awarded for managers who managed at least 4 tournaments? In addition to the # of players that automatically enter the tournaments, managers who managed at least 4 CH/FU tournaments per year are allowed to receive a WC for CH Tour Final and managers who managed at least 4 Tour level tournaments per year are allowed to receive a WC for WTF?

Wild cards are awarded on top of the existing entry lists and cannot be replaced by ALTs. Additional ranking points should be awarded for positions after 8 or 16 and scale down accordingly.



Wow someone is with me on this!
Could you possibly elaborate on your idea at all? I have to say I'm not incredibly fond of an idea where managers could earn spots in the WTF because I think it cheapens the experience for the players who earn their way in to the WTF It would have to be way more than 4 tournaments considering how many TT tournaments go on in a year, otherwise more managers would be qualifying for the WTF than the players. But I am interested if you could expand on how they are awarded on top of the entry lists. I assume that means you're not stealing a spot from the deserving players, but then I'm confused about how the draw would work out, and how these additional ranking points would work


Your 10% bonus points idea is a better idea, if incentives are truly truly needed. Though if you lose in the first round that doesn't amount to much.

It's good to get all these ideas out in the open
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

From I think we should not take any prices for managing, I always manage when I have time, also I think from now we can have two managers like kingroger/Mahqz did and just now that this year in my tournament I can't promise that I can post diffs at exact hour at every day, just players should be more patient and not start for asking diffs
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:36 AM   #27
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marto View Post
From I think we should not take any prices for managing, I always manage when I have time, also I think from now we can have two managers like kingroger/Mahqz did and just now that this year in my tournament I can't promise that I can post diffs at exact hour at every day, just players should be more patient and not start for asking diffs
I think that right there is the key
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:38 AM   #28
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolyBri View Post
I think the only way to point that one out is having a commitment thread as in PAW. I actually think that would be a good thing - it would mean less work for all the managers, and it is not that hard to update the entry lists with all commitments in the same thread.
I did daily entry list updates when I managed from the day I opened the thread - that way anyone could have scanned through the list on the front page.

Although I do accept that with the nature of my job that I can have 2 or 3 weeks in a month when it's quiet and I can have the time to do it and not everyone else can, but time of entry lists being done and people not sending picks are my two bugbears.
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Old 12-07-2011, 08:07 AM   #29
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by savesthedizzle View Post
Could you possibly elaborate on your idea at all? I have to say I'm not incredibly fond of an idea where managers could earn spots in the WTF because I think it cheapens the experience for the players who earn their way in to the WTF It would have to be way more than 4 tournaments considering how many TT tournaments go on in a year, otherwise more managers would be qualifying for the WTF than the players. But I am interested if you could expand on how they are awarded on top of the entry lists. I assume that means you're not stealing a spot from the deserving players, but then I'm confused about how the draw would work out, and how these additional ranking points would work

Your 10% bonus points idea is a better idea, if incentives are truly truly needed. Though if you lose in the first round that doesn't amount to much.
Glad you think the 10% is a better idea.

To be honest I am just throwing out random ideas cause I won't be managing the tournaments. Just random thoughts...

There are approximately 66 tournaments per year to be managed on the tour level. Suppose it's divided evenly where there are 16.5 (or 16) manager who qualified for singles (no doubles) based on this rule. You will have the draw of the usual 8 + 16 extra players = 24 players.

Round robins are already a disaster in TT so I thought it's better to just tip them as the day goes. Draws will be made base on 32 players with the 8 qualified players receiving BYEs.

If there are less managers than 16 who qualify, then BYE(s) can be given to the manager(s) who managed the most tournaments, or can be placed randomly. ALTs can replace a seeded player but not WC manager positions. WC manager positions cannot replace a seeded spot if there are not enough ALTs. They will just get a BYE if they meet someone who withdrew or forget to send a pick. However, they must send picks in order to receive ranking points cause they must tip correctly. All seeded players will get a BYE so they will have advantages over managers.

...and if I remember correctly, WTF starts on Sunday and ends on Sunday, so it can be played like this:

Code:
Sunday    2 RR Matches -> TT R32
Monday    2 RR Matches -> TT R16
Tuesday   2 RR Matches -> TT  QF Day 1/2
Wednesday 2 RR Matches -> TT  QF Day 2/2
Thursday  2 RR Matches -> TT  SF Day 1/2
Friday    2 RR Matches -> TT  SF Day 2/2
Saturday  2 SF Matches -> TT FIN Day 1/2
Sunday    1 F  Match   -> TT FIN Day 2/2
Ranking points might be an issue so let's see how this can be ironed.

Code:
WIN: 700 points
RUP: 350 points
 SF: 175 points
 QF:  85 points
R16:  13 points
R32:   1 point
Another option would be to keep the current RR. For each group 11 matches will be played rather than 3 (cause max 12 on each side).

Code:
Sunday    2 RR Matches -> TT RR 1/2
Monday    2 RR Matches -> TT RR 3/4
Tuesday   2 RR Matches -> TT RR 5/6
Wednesday 2 RR Matches -> TT RR 7/8
Thursday  2 RR Matches -> TT RR 9/10
Friday    2 RR Matches -> TT RR 11 & SF D 1/2
Saturday  2 SF Matches -> TT SF D 2/2 & FI D 1/2
Sunday    1 F  Match   -> TT FI D 2/2
Code:
Each RR match win = Earns 27 points
Each SF match win = Earns 200 points
Final win = Earn 250 points 
Undefeated Champion = 747 points
__________________
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Titles   

DTT(D) : 2012 Nice & Eastbourne, Olympics Bronze, 2013 Indian Wells w/supertec
PAW    : 2012 Atlanta
Suicide: 2011 Barcelona*, 2012 U.S. Open*, WTF*, 2013 Gstaad, Winston-Salem*
TT(S)  : 2011 Szczecin CH, 2013 Miami & Stuttgart
TT(D)  : 2011 Eastbourne w/Blarghman, Pozoblanco CH w/MuriloBrasil, Genova CH w/ESimp, Szczecin CH w/Dexter,
         2012 Newport w/chowdaheads25, 2013 Memphis & Stuttgart w/Blarghman
FITD   : 2011 Kuala Lumpur, 2012 Kitzbühel, 2013/14 Monte Carlo
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Old 12-07-2011, 09:04 AM   #30
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Default Re: TT changes 2012

I'm 100% against any incentives for managers. First, if someone's only managing because of the incentive, that's not the kind of manager I'd like to see on TT to start with. Second, people who don't have time to manage (due to work, school, etc) would feel like they cannot have the "full experience" of the game, just because they will never have access to these benefits from managing. You're effectively creating two classes of players and giving special treatment to one of those.
__________________
TT Rankings - Singles: 292 (best 13) / Doubles: 271 (best 165)

Titles: Astana 2 CH '11, Challenger Tour Finals '11, Kuala Lumpur '12 (w/Dudisela75), Bressuire Futures '13 (w/Marita)

Finals: Fürth CH '11, Orleans CH '11, Petange CH '12, TT Euro '12 (w/Vilnietè)

SF: Australian Open '12, Memphis '12
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