US presidential election 2012 - Page 20 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 12-29-2011, 10:04 AM   #286
country flag tripwires
Registered User
 
tripwires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 28
Posts: 13,455
tripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Sounds like you haven't got a clue what libertarianism means. FDI is about as libertarian as it can get. What have abundant natural resources got to do with libertarianism?
FDI means we're an open economy. It doesn't make us a libertarian country; it doesn't mean our government is a libertarian one. That's simply laughable. I made the point about natural resources to explain why our economy is so open to FDI and foreigners. It's certainly not because the government is interested in upholding libertarian principles.

Quote:
Sorry to have to tell you this but rising prices are a side effect of a booming economy. Either accept high prices or accept a shit economy. That's just the reality of the world we live in. If you want low prices, move to Zimbabwe where you can buy 10 acres of land for $10. You'll have no clean food or water but at least your land is cheap. That's all that matters to you obviously.
1. If I accept what you're saying, it means my country's economy has been "booming" for the past 30-40 years.

2. You have no idea what you're saying, so let me tell you what it's like in Singapore because I actually live here. Housing prices have escalated astronomically over the past 5 years (again, this is a rough estimate) for various reasons, one of which is the government's various pro-foreigners policies that directly or indirectly have encouraged cash-rich foreigners, mainly people from China and Indonesia, to come in here and drive up property prices. This is a fact, easily attested to by the government's recent measures introduced to cool property prices in Singapore (which include, among other things, higher stamp duty rates for foreigners who buy private properties).

3. I find it absolutely laughable that you seem to be insinuating that "cheap land" is something that I shouldn't care about. Another fact for you: one of the policies that the Singapore government has promoted since independence in 1965 is home ownership. It's a bedrock of Singaporean existence. There is nothing trivial about my concern about whether land is cheap here if I cannot afford a home for myself. It's pointless bringing up Zimbabwe - we're obviously way ahead of them in terms of development. There is also no logical trade-off between clean water and "cheap land" as you put it. It is perfectly reasonable for a citizen of any country to expect to be able to afford his own home. I'm not even talking about buying a huge bungalow in Nassim Road or a serviced apartment in town for S$23 million. I'm talking about how the average price of private property is easily over S$1.2 million and before the government stepped in, public housing (public housing) wasn't that far behind. We're not all millionaires here. I earn more than the average Singaporean but I still can't afford private property. In fact, my salary works against me too with regard to public housing (short version: income cap for married couples; preference given to married couples).

4. FYI, I'm not the only Singaporean complaining about rising cost of living and rising housing prices. It was a hot topic of contention during the May general elections and contributed to the least resounding victory for the PAP in the elections. You can look this up - the Economist did a pretty solid piece on it.

Quote:
Financial freedom is one of several factors which determine a country's overall freedom. Yes it's far from perfect but Singapore's business, trade, property, monetary and labor laws are among the most libertarian in the world. Not to mention one of the lowest tax rates.

If you don't think these demonstrate libertarianism then you're still clueless. Better check the definition before making these comments.
Please, stop trying to educate me on my own country's "overall freedom". We're not North Korea but we're not exactly Taiwan either. FYI, there is no minimum wage in Singapore and there is no culture of trade unionism because it has been discouraged by the PAP government post-independence in order to reduce the frequency of strikes and attract MNCs to set up shop here. Not to mention income inequality has increased over the past few years (fuzzy on the exact stats but it's somewhere out there). It's also funny that you should mention property laws - we cannot have libertarian property laws because everything ultimately belongs to the government due to scarcity of land.

Is this what you mean by "libertarian"? Yes, we have an open economy that promotes free trade and FDI and second-rate foreigners coming in here and making it as CEOs. Sure, we are a democracy in name and we hold free and fair (this is debatable but for the purpose of this post let's just let it slide) elections once every five years. But that's about as far as it goes, and I sincerely hope you weren't arguing that Singapore is libertarian politically because it would show that you know absolutely nothing about my country.

Like I said in my previous post, whatever policies that the government has instituted to date to promote economic freedom isn't so much because they give a shit about individual liberty. It's all done in the name of pragmatism. Singapore, a small country with no natural resources, needed to find a way to survive in the world after we were kicked out of Malaysia in 1965. I definitely think it's great that my government has gotten it right so far, minus the past 5 years or so, because it means that I'm not living in poverty and we're better than Malaysia. But to use the word "libertarian" to describe my country is absolutely, absolutely laughable; to lump my country in the same category as Australia and Switzerland is just...let me put it kindly: you are being very kind to us. In fact, I find it cute that you seem convinced of your opinion. Tell that to any Singaporean with a working brain between his ears who doesn't blindly support the ruling party and he'd probably laugh in your face.

Lastly, unless you are a PAP mole, there was no need to get defensive and rude. My original post was really just me ranting about my government. Maybe I shouldn't have used the smiley but I honestly find it hilarious whenever a foreigner tries to argue that Singapore is more liberal or libertarian than it really is (when in fact it is not at all). Then again, I guess it's true for them - Singapore is a great country to live in if you're a foreigner. Just don't vandalise any MRT trains or try to bring in drugs.
__________________
Roger Federer
tripwires is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 12-29-2011, 02:35 PM   #287
country flag orangehat
Registered User
 
orangehat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,756
orangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond reputeorangehat has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Using my definition from google:

Libertarianism: An extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.

Let me point out 7 reasons why Singapore does not fall in line with this definition.

1. No real freedom of speech, widespread censorship (and subsequently induced self-censorship). I believe Singapore ranked 136 on the Media freedom index 2010. (Behind Bangladesh, ZIMBABWE, Congo and IRAQ)
2. You can't protest, a gathering of more than 5 people in a public area (yes you read that right, 5 people) is technically an illegal gathering without a police permit if it is meant for a cause (even for charity)
3. Forced savings (as stated above)
4. Excessive "big brother" influence in daily lives (e.g. fines on everything from eating on public transport to spitting and a ban on chewing gum)
5. Dubious independence of the judicial system (multiple lawsuits bankrupting opposition and potential political opponents that would never stand anywhere else)
6. Internal Security Act (gives right for detention up to 2 years without probable cause)
7. Ban on Jehovah's Witnesses (granted they're annoying and non-mainstream) despite supposed religious freedom.

Libertarian does not solely refer to economic policies, that would make you more like a fiscal conservative.
__________________
Tennis Tipping

Singles: (61/10) Finals: 1-5 ATP, 3-1 Challengers
W: Rotterdam '12 F: Monte Carlo '11, Dubai '11, Nice '11, Stockholm '11, Atlanta '12
Slams:1R,3R,3R,QF

Doubles: (9/5) Finals: 3-4 ATP, 8-7 Challengers
W: US Open '12 (w/Allez-Alejo), Bercy '11 (w/ZackBusner), Winston-Salem '12 (w/Betty) F: Atlanta '12 (w/Betty), Eastbourne '11 (w/*Jean*), Stockholm '11 (w/njnetswill), Casablanca '10 (w/Gavnich77)
Slams:2R,3R,QF,W
orangehat is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 03:32 PM   #288
country flag tripwires
Registered User
 
tripwires's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 28
Posts: 13,455
tripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond reputetripwires has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangehat View Post
Using my definition from google:

Libertarianism: An extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.

Let me point out 7 reasons why Singapore does not fall in line with this definition.

1. No real freedom of speech, widespread censorship (and subsequently induced self-censorship). I believe Singapore ranked 136 on the Media freedom index 2010. (Behind Bangladesh, ZIMBABWE, Congo and IRAQ)
2. You can't protest, a gathering of more than 5 people in a public area (yes you read that right, 5 people) is technically an illegal gathering without a police permit if it is meant for a cause (even for charity)
3. Forced savings (as stated above)
4. Excessive "big brother" influence in daily lives (e.g. fines on everything from eating on public transport to spitting and a ban on chewing gum)
5. Dubious independence of the judicial system (multiple lawsuits bankrupting opposition and potential political opponents that would never stand anywhere else)
6. Internal Security Act (gives right for detention up to 2 years without probable cause)
7. Ban on Jehovah's Witnesses (granted they're annoying and non-mainstream) despite supposed religious freedom.

Libertarian does not solely refer to economic policies, that would make you more like a fiscal conservative.
I agree with pretty much all of this, except I would qualify 5 to say that defamation lawsuits haven't been used as much in recent times by the ruling party as compared to the past. In fact, as far as I know no one was sued before, during and after the general elections this year.

This may be shocking to others but I consider this progress for the nation.
__________________
Roger Federer
tripwires is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 03:38 PM   #289
country flag fast_clay
Registered User
 
fast_clay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ₫ṿﻁᶫỉᾔﺍᶏ
Posts: 15,730
fast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond reputefast_clay has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

number 7 is pretty solid though...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by SelvenluvJo View Post
why are you so seriously
fast_clay is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 04:58 PM   #290
country flag Stensland
Registered User
 
Stensland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,227
Stensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond reputeStensland has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

great posts, tripwires. very interesting to read.
Stensland is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 05:20 PM   #291
country flag ibreak4coffee
Moderator
 
ibreak4coffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 7,232
ibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond reputeibreak4coffee has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

tripwires and orangehat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Be careful, I've been beaten up on this forum for calling Scandinavia a socialist paradise. Norway is very oil rich so it's difficult to judge the effectiveness of their political system. Sweden is about the same level as Germany in terms of social liberalism. Living standard is slightly higher but they don't have to cope with the level of immigration from Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe as the rest of the EU. France, for instance, has to pay to incorporate millions of uneducated unskilled labor into the economy.
I put "socialist" in parentheses because I am well aware of how successfully these countries have blended economic openness with social protections. For some reason though, the right in the US (and elsewhere) like to "warn" that the US will turn into Scandanavia if health care or other social protections are passed. Scaremongering without facts. Yes they pay a lot in taxes there - so do I in New York state and they get a much better deal out of it.

Also Sweden doesn't have to cope with immigration???? Have you ever been there? Seriously one google search would have shown you that 25% of the population of Sweden is either foreign born or from a parent born abroad. They were extremely welcoming of refugees from the former Yugoslav republics and more recently from Iraq. Its started to cause visible tensions as elsewhere.

Quote:
Denmark, on the other hand, is a country that's easy to misinterpret because it does indeed have the highest tax rate in the western world. I myself used to be highly prejudiced but recently I found otherwise - government size and taxation are only two of many factors. The process of registering a new business is easier and faster than anywhere else in the west. The property, monetary, financial and labor laws are among the most libertarian in the world. If it wasn't for high taxes, they'd be equally free market to Switzerland.
You said it. Denmark is a fantastic country. But again, its not libertarian. They just have made it easier to do business while maintaining a strong social safety net - which no true libertarian endorses. Certainly if you listen to the definition of libertarianism in the country we both live in, you'd think government had absolutely no value to add to society at all beyond maintaining an army.


Quote:
You better check your facts before making these statements. The two Asian countries I mention have better living standards than Scandinavia and Australia: GDP (PPP) per capita
No need to repeat what tripwires has written. Suffice it to say you define "living standards" solely on economic data and activity. To most people, its more than that. GDP per capita as a metric is not a great way to define living standards either - its not a measurement of standard of living or personal income but of national economic activity. People's real incomes and standards of living can be declining while GDP is increasing. And in the case of Singapore and Hong Kong, international bankers making astronomical sums doesn't mean the average person there is better off. GDP doesnt make a distinction. If you take the Human Development Index, Singapore is only 26th (though I concede Australia scores very high in second place)

Quote:
Again, check your facts. Both Scandinavia (heard of IKEA) and Australia (Rupert Murdoch). But in any case, you think it's wrong to have billionaires?

Also bear in mind US population is 300 million and China 1.4 billion.
Australia 20 million, Sweden 9 million, Denmark 5 million, Norway 5 million.
Which countries are more likely to have more billionaires?
I said it was harder - not impossible. And again, you are misinterpreting what I said. Where did I say its wrong to have billionaires? But mentioning a man who made his fortune in the UK and US and then globally and hasnt had his base of operation in Australia in over 35 years is not exactly a great example for those 15 billionaires still living and working in Australia. Forbes doesnt even list Murdoch as Australian anymore.
ibreak4coffee is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 09:53 PM   #292
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,785
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
FDI means we're an open economy. It doesn't make us a libertarian country; it doesn't mean our government is a libertarian one. That's simply laughable. I made the point about natural resources to explain why our economy is so open to FDI and foreigners. It's certainly not because the government is interested in upholding libertarian principles.
Actually that's exactly what it means. An economy open to foreign trade and investment is free from government intervention. Lack of intervention is the heart of libertarianism. Again, check the definition.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:05 PM   #293
country flag Garson007
Registered User
 
Garson007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Stellenbosch
Age: 27
Posts: 3,887
Garson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond reputeGarson007 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Cripes, Jimnik, that's a bit one dimensional. A libertarian philosophy also believes in social freedoms. Social freedoms are not the same as economic freedoms. They're two completely different things. Politics is not unidimensional and neither is libertarianism.
Garson007 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:05 PM   #294
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,785
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
1. If I accept what you're saying, it means my country's economy has been "booming" for the past 30-40 years.

2. You have no idea what you're saying, so let me tell you what it's like in Singapore because I actually live here. Housing prices have escalated astronomically over the past 5 years (again, this is a rough estimate) for various reasons, one of which is the government's various pro-foreigners policies that directly or indirectly have encouraged cash-rich foreigners, mainly people from China and Indonesia, to come in here and drive up property prices. This is a fact, easily attested to by the government's recent measures introduced to cool property prices in Singapore (which include, among other things, higher stamp duty rates for foreigners who buy private properties).
Yes, it has been booming for the last 30-40 years. Housing prices don't escalate in a receding economy. Encouraging cash rich foreigners is one of the benefits of libertarian policy. They invest and consume which stimulates the economy, creates jobs and generates wealth for locals. Rising prices are a side effect but infinitely better than recession and deflation. Your complaints about foreign investors driving up prices represent right-wing nationalistic policy, not libertarian.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:07 PM   #295
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,785
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garson007 View Post
Cripes, Jimnik, that's a bit one dimensional. A libertarian country also believe in social freedoms. Social freedoms are not the same as economic freedoms. They're two completely different things. Politics is not unidimensional and neither is libertarianism.
So what's your point? I also believe in social freedom, hence why I'm a libertarian not a republican. If Singapore have anti-social freedom laws then I'm against that but this is a discussion about economics and business which is probably the more important aspect of libertarianism.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:18 PM   #296
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,785
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Btw, making "I find it absolutely laughable" statements doesn't help your argument. A lot of misconceptions you've made on libertarianism are laughable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
3. I find it absolutely laughable that you seem to be insinuating that "cheap land" is something that I shouldn't care about. Another fact for you: one of the policies that the Singapore government has promoted since independence in 1965 is home ownership. It's a bedrock of Singaporean existence. There is nothing trivial about my concern about whether land is cheap here if I cannot afford a home for myself. It's pointless bringing up Zimbabwe - we're obviously way ahead of them in terms of development. There is also no logical trade-off between clean water and "cheap land" as you put it. It is perfectly reasonable for a citizen of any country to expect to be able to afford his own home. I'm not even talking about buying a huge bungalow in Nassim Road or a serviced apartment in town for S$23 million. I'm talking about how the average price of private property is easily over S$1.2 million and before the government stepped in, public housing (public housing) wasn't that far behind. We're not all millionaires here. I earn more than the average Singaporean but I still can't afford private property. In fact, my salary works against me too with regard to public housing (short version: income cap for married couples; preference given to married couples).
Well there's the difference between you and me. If you can't afford to buy a home, you don't deserve to own a home. It's a simple as that. You're gong to think I'm very harsh but I come from West London (highest property prices in Europe next to Monaco). We have tons of billionaire foreigners from Russia and the Middle-East driving up property prices in my neighbourhood. There are apartments two streets away from my home which go for £5million. It sucks I can't afford to own my own home (yet) but I'm not going to blame it on a lack of freedom. It's the reality of the world we live in. An economy is still better off with billionaires driving prices up than no billionaires at all.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:24 PM   #297
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,785
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
4. FYI, I'm not the only Singaporean complaining about rising cost of living and rising housing prices. It was a hot topic of contention during the May general elections and contributed to the least resounding victory for the PAP in the elections. You can look this up - the Economist did a pretty solid piece on it.
I know, I watched it on Al Jazeera. I also saw many news clips of Singaporeans complaining about the gap between wealthy and poor. You can complain all you want but the economy is still better off with the foreign billionaires than without. Not just for the locals but the foreigners themselves. Again, I sound harsh, but I empathise with the foreign billionaires too.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:29 PM   #298
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,785
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
Please, stop trying to educate me on my own country's "overall freedom". We're not North Korea but we're not exactly Taiwan either. FYI, there is no minimum wage in Singapore and there is no culture of trade unionism because it has been discouraged by the PAP government post-independence in order to reduce the frequency of strikes and attract MNCs to set up shop here. Not to mention income inequality has increased over the past few years (fuzzy on the exact stats but it's somewhere out there). It's also funny that you should mention property laws - we cannot have libertarian property laws because everything ultimately belongs to the government due to scarcity of land.

Is this what you mean by "libertarian"? Yes, we have an open economy that promotes free trade and FDI and second-rate foreigners coming in here and making it as CEOs. Sure, we are a democracy in name and we hold free and fair (this is debatable but for the purpose of this post let's just let it slide) elections once every five years. But that's about as far as it goes, and I sincerely hope you weren't arguing that Singapore is libertarian politically because it would show that you know absolutely nothing about my country.

Like I said in my previous post, whatever policies that the government has instituted to date to promote economic freedom isn't so much because they give a shit about individual liberty. It's all done in the name of pragmatism. Singapore, a small country with no natural resources, needed to find a way to survive in the world after we were kicked out of Malaysia in 1965. I definitely think it's great that my government has gotten it right so far, minus the past 5 years or so, because it means that I'm not living in poverty and we're better than Malaysia. But to use the word "libertarian" to describe my country is absolutely, absolutely laughable; to lump my country in the same category as Australia and Switzerland is just...let me put it kindly: you are being very kind to us. In fact, I find it cute that you seem convinced of your opinion. Tell that to any Singaporean with a working brain between his ears who doesn't blindly support the ruling party and he'd probably laugh in your face.
Everything you say here indicates libertarianism. Sorry to break it to you but no minimum wage, no trade unions, ease of access for foreigners - ALL LIBERTARIAN POLICIES.

Please, please, I beg you, check the definition before going any further.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:29 PM   #299
country flag scoobs
Anastasia Komananov, KGB
 
scoobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Age: 36
Posts: 53,496
scoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond reputescoobs has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
So what's your point? I also believe in social freedom, hence why I'm a libertarian not a republican. If Singapore have anti-social freedom laws then I'm against that but this is a discussion about economics and business which is probably the more important aspect of libertarianism.
Clearly Singapore has a very laissez-faire approach to business and economic matters (mostly) but interferes much more in the social aspects of its citizens (and I'd argue about how economically libertarian it is to force your citizens to save 20% of their income).

But the social aspects of libertarianism cannot be divorced from the economic aspects and still be libertarian. I would argue that the social libertarian aspects are actually the most important ones - they're certainly the ones that seem to be the hardest to implement and are thus sacrificed while economic libertarianism is much more abundant.
scoobs is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2011, 10:32 PM   #300
country flag Jimnik
Registered User
 
Jimnik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 20,785
Jimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond reputeJimnik has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
Lastly, unless you are a PAP mole, there was no need to get defensive and rude. My original post was really just me ranting about my government. Maybe I shouldn't have used the smiley but I honestly find it hilarious whenever a foreigner tries to argue that Singapore is more liberal or libertarian than it really is (when in fact it is not at all). Then again, I guess it's true for them - Singapore is a great country to live in if you're a foreigner. Just don't vandalise any MRT trains or try to bring in drugs.
How was I rude?

Liberal and libertarian are two COMPLETELY separate philosophies. Please please check this out. I swear I'm not being defensive or rude. You simply don't understand the free market principles I'm arguing for.
Jimnik is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios