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Old 12-28-2011, 07:32 PM   #271
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Now you just sound like Jorge when he claimed true communism has never existed.
he was right

Quote:
"Capitalism'' is just a word we made up to describe systems of free trade and individual ownership.
exactly, but where does the gvt fit here?
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:23 PM   #272
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post


exactly, but where does the gvt fit here?
Wherever the voters want it to fit.
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:15 AM   #273
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

indecision twenty eleven.

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Old 12-29-2011, 02:14 AM   #274
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

This also makes sense:
Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
capitalism Communism in its true form has never even existed. perhaps there's a case that could be made about the capitalist Amish society in medieval iceland Pennsylvania (famous example) or another isolated case here and here but the fact of the matter is that capitalism communism doesn't exist.

to some, libertarianism socialism is just another name for capitalism communism given the bad rap that the latter has adquired over time. to others, libertarianism socialism is just something different, something that actually encompasses the current system but that doesn't fit the criteria to be a synoninom (bad spelling) of capitalism communism
Heavily edited but I swear I'm not trying to wind you up. Just showing how both ends of the political spectrum work similarly. Capitalism-libertarianism share the same idealistic-realistic relationship as communism-socialism.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:37 AM   #275
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Works both ways. Self-proclaimed union and human rights leaders are only socialist until they've earned money. Then government tax collectors can go to hell and moral hazard goes out the window.
Absolutely. But it costs me far far far more as a taxpayer though to bail out the "independent" businessman who sprints for government support and bailouts anytime there is economic trouble or to cover bad decisions. Just like its going to cost me ridiculous amounts of money in the future to cover health care costs for a population reaching 50% obesity levels when a government-supported countrywide prevention initiative encouraging healthy choices could save me tons more in the long run.

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Of course there's a reason, nobody wants to vote for a party that takes away free education, healthcare, housing, dole and welfare. If you believe voters know what they're doing consider Hitler, Mugabe and Chavez and George W. Bush came to power this way.
Fixed your post

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Actually, it's the best blueprint for governing a society. There's a reason Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Switzerland and tax havens have the best living standards.
Theory is great - and reality is another thing. Complete freedom for anyone living in a society is not practical, nor desirable.

And you're not calling Australia, Switzerland, and Singapore libertarian societies are you? That would be the mother of all stretches. Also, tax havens by nature tend to be micro-states with so few people to govern they are terrible examples (and even in those, standards are slipping - been to Bermuda lately? I go at least one a year - things aren't nearly as good as before, like the rest of the world). Additionally, by any measure the "socialist" utopias of Scandanavia have the best - or very close to the best - living standards in the world. Certainly better than the two Asian examples you mention here, and for the most of the population of Australia as well. Whether their model is sustainable is another question, but for now they have achieved a standard of living along with economic growth and political stability that few if any nations could ever achieve. People on the right will criticize them incessantly however because while you can become a millionaire there pretty easily, its almost impossible to become a billionaire like it is in the US or now China.

Last edited by ibreak4coffee : 12-29-2011 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:41 AM   #276
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Was I the only one today who found it hilarious that a guy who left his ex-wife in the hospital with cancer was criticizing his opponents for running negative ads against him?

Comedy Central should really option the rights for the Republican primaries because start to finish this has been just must-see-tv.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:44 AM   #277
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
Absolutely. But it costs me far far far more as a taxpayer though to bail out the "independent" businessman who sprints for government support and bailouts anytime there is economic trouble or to cover bad decisions. Just like its going to cost me ridiculous amounts of money in the future to cover health care costs for a population reaching 50% obesity levels when a government-supported countrywide prevention initiative encouraging healthy choices could save me tons more in the long run.
I agree and I feel for you. Government support and bail-outs go totally against libertarian principles. If a businessman seeks outside help, he's not a true capitalist. I wouldn't even call him a businessman if he can't competently run his business.
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:46 AM   #278
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Actually, it's the best blueprint for governing a society. There's a reason Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Switzerland and tax havens have the best living standards.
HK has tons of issues and Singapore is almost as far as you can get from a libertarian government.

On the economy, perhaps, but even then it only extends to FDI. There exists a reason why people call Singapore the nanny state.
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:15 AM   #279
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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HK has tons of issues and Singapore is almost as far as you can get from a libertarian government.
Every country has issues, that's a lazy generic argument.

Hong Kong and Singapore are the two most libertarian economies in the world and the 5th and 13th highest living standards:

http://www.heritage.org/Index/
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2004rank.html

Only oil rich and tiny tax haven (very libertarian) islands are above.
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:55 AM   #280
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
Theory is great - and reality is another thing. Complete freedom for anyone living in a society is not practical, nor desirable.

And you're not calling Australia, Switzerland, and Singapore libertarian societies are you? That would be the mother of all stretches.
Australia, Switzerland and Singapore are as close to libertarianism as the Soviet Union was to communism. In theory, complete freedom is ideal. In practice, it is desirable to be as free as possible - from both an economic and moral stand point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
Also, tax havens by nature tend to be micro-states with so few people to govern they are terrible examples (and even in those, standards are slipping - been to Bermuda lately? I go at least one a year - things aren't nearly as good as before, like the rest of the world). Additionally, by any measure the "socialist" utopias of Scandanavia have the best - or very close to the best - living standards in the world.
Be careful, I've been beaten up on this forum for calling Scandinavia a socialist paradise. Norway is very oil rich so it's difficult to judge the effectiveness of their political system. Sweden is about the same level as Germany in terms of social liberalism. Living standard is slightly higher but they don't have to cope with the level of immigration from Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe as the rest of the EU. France, for instance, has to pay to incorporate millions of uneducated unskilled labor into the economy.

Denmark, on the other hand, is a country that's easy to misinterpret because it does indeed have the highest tax rate in the western world. I myself used to be highly prejudiced but recently I found otherwise - government size and taxation are only two of many factors. The process of registering a new business is easier and faster than anywhere else in the west. The property, monetary, financial and labor laws are among the most libertarian in the world. If it wasn't for high taxes, they'd be equally free market to Switzerland.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
Certainly better than the two Asian examples you mention here, and for the most of the population of Australia as well.
You better check your facts before making these statements. The two Asian countries I mention have better living standards than Scandinavia and Australia: GDP (PPP) per capita

Quote:
Whether their model is sustainable is another question, but for now they have achieved a standard of living along with economic growth and political stability that few if any nations could ever achieve. People on the right will criticize them incessantly however because while you can become a millionaire there pretty easily, its almost impossible to become a billionaire like it is in the US or now China.
Again, check your facts. Both Scandinavia (heard of IKEA) and Australia (Rupert Murdoch). But in any case, you think it's wrong to have billionaires?

Also bear in mind US population is 300 million and China 1.4 billion.
Australia 20 million, Sweden 9 million, Denmark 5 million, Norway 5 million.
Which countries are more likely to have more billionaires?
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:59 AM   #281
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Every country has issues, that's a lazy generic argument.

Hong Kong and Singapore are the two most libertarian economies in the world and the 5th and 13th highest living standards:

http://www.heritage.org/Index/
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2004rank.html

Only oil rich and tiny tax haven (very libertarian) islands are above.


It's not. It's the truth. Singapore cannot be called a libertarian country by any stretch of the imagination. Our economy has to open to FDI because of our inherent restraints - no natural resources, tiny population which the government is trying to balloon in an unsustainable manner, and for some reason, the government's seeming lack of confidence in its own local talent. It's all been pragmatically-planned from the start. Pragmatism is actually the governing principle to everything that my government does.

As for living standards, granted I'm having it pretty comfortable here with a roof over my head and adequate food and water and a decent-sized bank account; however, the cost of living for the average Singaporean is going up and not down. Housing prices here have escalated over the past 5 years (rough estimate). I am a working professional and I'm not sure how I'm going to afford a house - by house I mean a flat/apartment - by flat/apartment I mean public housing - when it's time to move out of my parents' house (this usually means when one gets married). Perhaps this is a common problem faced by most countries, but unlike most countries we don't have a city/suburbs demarcation. It's really only a matter of how expensive a flat is - expensive or ridiculously expensive.

Someone mentioned the nanny state - this is absolutely spot-on. Which other country in the world has a government that forces you to save 20% of your salary every month which in general you cannot touch until a certain age (usually around retirement age) except in certain circumstances? That's at least $900 of my salary gone every month, locked away for "future use" while a SWF invests it in some ill-advised venture and loses money. In the meantime, I may need the money for things like graduate studies, wedding expenses, even a fucking holiday. But no, I can't touch the money that I earned because the government tells us that we need to save and the government knows best. Of course it does. That's why it's the government.
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:14 AM   #282
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
It's not. It's the truth. Singapore cannot be called a libertarian country by any stretch of the imagination. Our economy has to open to FDI because of our inherent restraints - no natural resources, tiny population which the government is trying to balloon in an unsustainable manner, and for some reason, the government's seeming lack of confidence in its own local talent. It's all been pragmatically-planned from the start. Pragmatism is actually the governing principle to everything that my government does.
Sounds like you haven't got a clue what libertarianism means. FDI is about as libertarian as it can get. What have abundant natural resources got to do with libertarianism?
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:19 AM   #283
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
As for living standards, granted I'm having it pretty comfortable here with a roof over my head and adequate food and water and a decent-sized bank account; however, the cost of living for the average Singaporean is going up and not down. Housing prices here have escalated over the past 5 years (rough estimate). I am a working professional and I'm not sure how I'm going to afford a house - by house I mean a flat/apartment - by flat/apartment I mean public housing - when it's time to move out of my parents' house (this usually means when one gets married). Perhaps this is a common problem faced by most countries, but unlike most countries we don't have a city/suburbs demarcation. It's really only a matter of how expensive a flat is - expensive or ridiculously expensive.
Sorry to have to tell you this but rising prices are a side effect of a booming economy. Either accept high prices or accept a shit economy. That's just the reality of the world we live in. If you want low prices, move to Zimbabwe where you can buy 10 acres of land for $10. You'll have no clean food or water but at least your land is cheap. That's all that matters to you obviously.
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:25 AM   #284
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by tripwires View Post
Someone mentioned the nanny state - this is absolutely spot-on. Which other country in the world has a government that forces you to save 20% of your salary every month which in general you cannot touch until a certain age (usually around retirement age) except in certain circumstances? That's at least $900 of my salary gone every month, locked away for "future use" while a SWF invests it in some ill-advised venture and loses money. In the meantime, I may need the money for things like graduate studies, wedding expenses, even a fucking holiday. But no, I can't touch the money that I earned because the government tells us that we need to save and the government knows best. Of course it does. That's why it's the government.
Financial freedom is one of several factors which determine a country's overall freedom. Yes it's far from perfect but Singapore's business, trade, property, monetary and labor laws are among the most libertarian in the world. Not to mention one of the lowest tax rates.

If you don't think these demonstrate libertarianism then you're still clueless. Better check the definition before making these comments.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:55 AM   #285
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Financial freedom has got nothing to do with actual freedom.
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