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Old 12-27-2011, 03:07 PM   #256
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
The US definition of libertarianism (fiscal conservative, social liberal) would certainly fit me, but I felt let down that Paul's past is far from exemplary. I can not easily accept that he published a newsletter for 10 years that appealed to religious extremists and white supremacists and thinks it is OK now to just say the newsletter had nothing to do with any of his views.

I think it a fair conclusion that everything he says today is just calculated to appeal to a new fan base, now that his old fan base has found other candidates. Yet you are suggesting that the candidate with what appears to be the most racist record is the least racist in the field. I don't see how that follows.

EDIT: I just googled "The Story Behind Ron Paul's Racist Newsletters'' at theatlantic.com. It says just what I was trying to say above. Although it might be more forgiving than me.
sounds like someone is waiting for jesus...
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Old 12-27-2011, 07:10 PM   #257
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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The US definition of libertarianism (fiscal conservative, social liberal) would certainly fit me, ....
I'm pretty sure that's the international definition.
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Old 12-27-2011, 07:57 PM   #258
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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I'm pretty sure that's the international definition.
wikipedia has about a gazillion variations.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:25 AM   #259
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

libertarianism implies some form of anarchy over here. i don't know any political figure that openly talks "libertär". only fringe groups within the fdp (the most market-oriented, liberal party) consider themselves to be libertarians. the ideas ron paul stands for are virtually extinct in germany.

back on the campaign trail:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70887.html

Quote:
Newt Gingrich goes negative
Quote:
Later in the day, he laid out an expanded argument against Paul during an interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer, going so far as to say he wasn’t sure he’d be able to vote for the Texas congressman if he was the GOP nominee against Barack Obama.
boy must paul be a pariah within his own party...
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:46 AM   #260
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

No country in the world that has a libertarian party with more than 5-10% of the vote. Germany's FDP comes closer than any party in UK. Problem is students don't take up politics just to let the government sell everything. They believe in "getting involved" and "making a difference" which is pretty much left-wing mentality.

Most real libertarians are businessmen not politicians which is why it's hard to find political parties.
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:59 AM   #261
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
No country in the world that has a libertarian party with more than 5-10% of the vote. Germany's FDP comes closer than any party in UK. Problem is students don't take up politics just to let the government sell everything. They believe in "getting involved" and "making a difference" which is pretty much left-wing mentality.

Most real libertarians are businessmen not politicians which is why it's hard to find political parties.
There are PLENTY of self-proclaimed libertarian businessmen who can quote Atlas Shrugged who are libertarian only until markets turn against them. Then government suddenly has a central role to play and moral hazard goes out the window.

As for the fact no libertarian party has more than 5-10% of the total vote in any country - there's a reason for that. It may be attractive as a political philosophy, but its not a fantastic blueprint for governing a society. Nor could it ever survive in a political system so beholden to special interests - which describes pretty much any political system in the world today.
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Old 12-28-2011, 03:03 PM   #262
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

i agree. most of wall street probably believed in libertarian principles, but once libertarianism would have killed off their companies, they switched over to the kind of vile, job-killing socialism they berated earlier.

from libertarian crusader to "too big to fail"-marxist within a couple of months...talk about flip-floppin'...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70892.html

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Mitt Romney in striking distance of Iowa win
if romney even wins iowa, he's the republican nominee. the other candidates should just call it a day.
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Old 12-28-2011, 04:56 PM   #263
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
There are PLENTY of self-proclaimed libertarian businessmen who can quote Atlas Shrugged who are libertarian only until markets turn against them. Then government suddenly has a central role to play and moral hazard goes out the window.
Works both ways. Self-proclaimed union and human rights leaders are only socialist until they've earned money. Then government tax collectors can go to hell and moral hazard goes out the window.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
As for the fact no libertarian party has more than 5-10% of the total vote in any country - there's a reason for that.
Of course there's a reason, nobody wants to vote for a party that takes away free education, healthcare, housing, dole and welfare. If you believe voters know what they're doing consider Hitler, Mugabe and Chavez came to power this way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreak4coffee View Post
It may be attractive as a political philosophy, but its not a fantastic blueprint for governing a society. Nor could it ever survive in a political system so beholden to special interests - which describes pretty much any political system in the world today.
Actually, it's the best blueprint for governing a society. There's a reason Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Switzerland and tax havens have the best living standards.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:00 PM   #264
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
from libertarian crusader to "too big to fail"-marxist within a couple of months...talk about flip-floppin'...
Don't worry Rainy, I won't flip-flop.

Could never do that to you. Need someone to argue your opinions with.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:04 PM   #265
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Why did you pick a perfectly reasonable ad? If you think being opposed to open borders is a ''little gem'', then give me some examples of nations that the US should try to copy in its immigration policy.
i aint in favour of open borders. for one thing, i'm not sure if the canadian authorities wouldn't have had troubling doubts after they gave you a passport...
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #266
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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Don't worry Rainy, I won't flip-flop.
you're a man of conviction, i got that by now.

*edit: some comic relief:



i cracked up at number 9. hilarious.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:09 PM   #267
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
libertarianism implies some form of anarchy over here. i don't know any political figure that openly talks "libertär". only fringe groups within the fdp (the most market-oriented, liberal party) consider themselves to be libertarians. the ideas ron paul stands for are virtually extinct in germany.
capitalism in its true form has never even existed. perhaps there's a case that could be made about the capitalist society in medieval iceland (famous example) or another isolated case here and here but the fact of the matter is that capitalism doesn't exist.

to some, libertarianism is just another name for capitalism given the bad rap that the latter has adquired over time. to others, libertarianism is just something different, something that actually encompasses the current system but that doesn't fit the criteria to be a synoninom (bad spelling) of capitalism
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:22 PM   #268
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

Now you just sound like Jorge when he claimed true communism has never existed. "Capitalism'' is just a word we made up to describe systems of free trade and individual ownership.

What is this compulsion to say things we actually invent have never existed? It's just capitalism, we can make it what we want it to be, as the White Rabbit wisely said.
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:23 PM   #269
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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i aint in favour of open borders. for one thing, i'm not sure if the canadian authorities wouldn't have had troubling doubts after they gave you a passport...
So you agree with the content of the ad, then.

I was British. WE told the Canadian authorities who could have passports.
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:28 PM   #270
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Default Re: US presidential election 2012

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So you agree with the content of the ad, then.
i don't. then again, tha'ts not the relevant point. what's important is that he was pandering to rednecks all over the country, which is what i said.

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I was British. WE told the Canadian authorities who could have passports.
typical brit
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