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Old 11-22-2011, 12:31 AM   #106
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
now that's a post I would almost fully agree with, it's refreshing to see one so young and so wise

almost because I disagree with a tiny detail which is in bold, I don't respect their beliefs, I might respect them for who they are as a person, but I don't think unfounded blind faith is a virtue, especially when it turns people into morally vile and twisted characters and often leads to violence once someone decides to follow the script by the letter, not to mention when the founding script of said religion contains so many disgusting parts
Hm.. reminds me of how I used to think. I'm guessing you once had similar beliefs to what you disagree with? But it changed overtime? Well that was the case with me. I believed everything in the Bible as a young teen.. even these misogynistic passages made sense, it's almost scary thinking back just 10 years ago.. I guess it's difficult to expect everyone to grow out of it, it just depends on upbringing and opinons different people develop overtime due to who they talk to. In some ways it's all random, one or two different choices in life could have led me to be preaching the glory of God and religion.. we are in some ways just blank canvases painted in random colours through sheer pot luck.. which is why I'm reserved when it comes to criticising those with these blind beliefs. Sympathetic I suppose.

But yeah most people similar to myself disagree with me on the notion of respecting the beliefs of the religious despite having already decided to disregard religion myself. It's not really the actually beliefs I respect per se, it's more the respect I have in what those people I respect believe to be truth.. hey for all I and anyone else knows it could be true, no point being definate about things which are essentially impossible to be definate about.. blindly believing in what the bible and other scriptures say is naive, while conversely blindly disparaging it as definately completely false would be equally naive.. most things in the bible are impossible to prove either way which is what gives those that believe so strongly in their religion power and confidence.. nobody can prove it wrong, and they're right. I'd rather ignore it and occasionally make light of it than simply disagree with it with 100% certainty, wouldn't make me any better than those who speak of god and religon with 100% certainty and criticise me for not doing so. Food gives me the energy to survive - that I can be certain of, the bible? Might as well tell me witches and wizards exist.. they could for all I know, but we don't really think about it hm.

But hey, we're by nature expected to believe one thing or another and disregard all other opinions as simply false. Even though if we had their upbringing and experiences, we would more than likely have the same beliefs.. it's just a pointless cycle of true lies.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:40 AM   #107
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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How come I was always taught never to talk about politics, sex and religion?
Because doctors and lawyers shouldn't have time for that stuff.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:23 AM   #108
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Because doctors and lawyers shouldn't have time for that stuff.
I should have added "at the dinner table" And on that note you've reminded me so off to read a good journal.
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:48 AM   #109
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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I brought more toys:




Wives are treated as mere property, all throughout the bible:





Keep all men and all non-virgin women. But don't kill the virgin ones, just have fun with them!





From the New Testament. You know, the "nice bit":




I have more, much more. But that should keep the Holy Babble's apologists busy for a while.
Keep them coming. I was going to reply when I felt in the mood, but this should keep Seingeist occupied for the time being.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:48 AM   #110
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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More symbolic than literal (God does not have genitals)
Never heard anyone refer to God as "The Mother" before
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:34 AM   #111
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
almost because I disagree with a tiny detail which is in bold, I don't respect their beliefs, I might respect them for who they are as a person, but I don't think unfounded blind faith is a virtue, especially when it turns people into morally vile and twisted characters and often leads to violence once someone decides to follow the script by the letter, not to mention when the founding script of said religion contains so many disgusting parts
I do think that only a minority is as extreme as it may seem in threads like these.

I'm an agnostic myself but I grew up as a catholic and quite a few of my family members are still religious (catholic, lutheran,...) in a very moderate way. Not every religious person is twisted and extreme. I know only one extreme person and she is impossible to argue with because she wants respect for her beliefs but gives no respect back. Not everybody is like that.
Most of my family, even if they do consider themselves catholic, believe in gay rights, are critical towards the pope,... They may be believers but it's not a blind faith.
Many I know believe in god because they are convinced that there's enough evidence of his presence around us. I may not agree with them and I may question why god has to be so invisible and why you just have to "believe" because expecting hard evidence shows that you don't have enough faith in god. However, many of the moderate religious people I know do feel that they see evidence around us (in nature for example).

Most religious people I know say that the Bible is written by people in a specific social context. Adding to that, many mistakes were made during the translations (one of the priests who taught us at school used to give us examples of wrong translations which was actually fun and he used those examples to remind us that you need to be critical of what you read, even if it's the Bible. That was a catholic priest saying that).

The Bible as we know it now was re-written in a major way in the early middle ages and many of the mysogynist passages were added and written in during that time. For example, Mary Magdelene changed from being one of the disciples of Jesus (a highly respected woman) to a whore just because those in charge of the church back then decided that the church should be a men's business and women should "know their place" and not given that much power. In the early days of christianity, however, women had a much bigger role (my sister is a theologist, can you tell? She knows much more about this obviously). For example, the idea that the clergy in the catholic church (priests, cardinals, the pope,...) have to be male and have to be celibate was only introduced in the middle ages. Popes used to have wives. Priests used to be able to marry.
One of the explanations given now for the fact that only men can be priests in the catholic church is that the disciples of Jesus were all male and they accompanied jesus without wives so they have to be celibate. However, at least one of his disciples was a woman (Mary Magdelene) and most of those disciples were actually married.

Islam can't be reduced to the extremists.
Christianity can't be reduced to the extremists either.

You can't dismiss an entire religion if you're only willing to reduce it to its extremes.


Edit: Catholicism is part of christianity. To say otherwise is dumb. The word christianity contains the word "christ" as in Jesus Christ. So, every religion where Jesus is seen as the christ, the messiah,...is part of christianity. In catholicism, Jesus is seen as the messiah, hence, it's a christian religion.

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Old 11-22-2011, 09:13 AM   #112
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Some "religious people" (the most fanatical ones or politically oriented) have a not so very secret dream. Killing those who don't share their beliefs.
Killing those who don't share one's beliefs is ideological and not religious. Religion is strictly private.

Islamism is not a religion, it's an ideology (I don't say Islam, out of carefulness).

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Edit: Catholicism is part of christianity. To say otherwise is dumb. The word christianity contains the word "christ" as in Jesus Christ. So, every religion where Jesus is seen as the christ, the messiah,...is part of christianity. In catholicism, Jesus is seen as the messiah, hence, it's a christian religion.
I'm an anticlericalist Catholic but I don't think people who deviate the Christian message are Christian. Otherwise any liar can claim the Inquisition was Christian. Personally I have trouble in considering Calvinists as Christians.

It's not all a matter of interpretation.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:28 AM   #113
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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I'm an anticlericalist Catholic but I don't think people who deviate the Christian message are Christian. Otherwise any liar can claim the Inquisition was Christian. Personally I have trouble in considering Calvinists as Christians.
I didn't think that it was up for interpretation either since it seems obvious to me so I'm very surprised to see that many disagree on what's christian and what's not.

How would you define a "christian" exactly?
Perhaps it's a linguistic issue on a different level to you?
Example:
When I grew up, you could hear people call bad actions "not christian": stealing, cursing, showing disrespect to your parents, etc.
If you were caught lying, you could often hear "that's not very christian of you" for example.
So, "christianity" was almost a synonym for what was considered to be "proper" and good behaviour. In that sense, the Inquisition was not christian.

But when talking about which religion is part of Christianity, it goes back to which religion accepts Jesus as the messiah. (look at the etymology of the word). The way that story is told within each religion may differ but at the core, they all accept Jesus Christ.
The Inquisition was a bad, evil part in the history of Christianity but to me, it was part of it because they did believe in Jesus Christ.

Last edited by Castafiore : 11-22-2011 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:50 AM   #114
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Taejin, no need to fabricate or transmit someone else forgery. You have plenty of real statements from the likes of Clinton, Holbrooke, Freud, Biden, Hitler, Chirac, Starcevic, Blair, Roman Pope etc. for your needs.

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True. Some "atheists" (the most fanatical ones or politically oriented) have one secret dream. Killing the every kind of inner-life (which means freedom, subjectivity, art, affectivity, ...) and merchandizing everything that stands on the planet.

"The Civilization of Machines is a conspiracy against every kind of inner-life" said Bernanos.
Affirmative. Only wouldnt agree it is a secret anymore.

As for subject of the thread... OT for Christians is important only for contextualization of NT. Namely, Jesus lived, preached and died in Jewish society therefore need for OT texts.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:11 AM   #115
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Killing those who don't share one's beliefs is ideological and not religious. Religion is strictly private.

Islamism is not a religion, it's an ideology (I don't say Islam, out of carefulness).
I would call it religious fundamentalism. But even if you prefer to call it an ideology then it's still one that's based on religion and believing in a god. Whether you approve of that religion and its rules doesn't change that. What I was trying to point out is that people do horrible things in the name of their version of religion, as well as in the name of ideologies that don't include the belief in a god. But that doesn't mean that either side, whether believing in a god or not believing in any god is necessarily or inherently evil.

I completely agree with you that religion should be strictly private. And I would add that this also includes the absence of religion.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:20 PM   #116
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Quite the contrary, actually. You've dropped in a few passages whose context you do not even begin (or attempt) to appreciate or understand.

Moreover, you have not touched the points that I made in my original post, and none of those hastily posted verses refutes or overturns any of them.

I could "busy" myself with those verses with long and thorough posts, and you would ignore them just as thoughtlessly as you did the original post.

I would make the concession that it's a "nice try," but it is not even that.
You have addressed some of the numerous verses relating to women, and you have indeed offered a plausible explanation to some of them. In most cases, however, you make mere personal interpretations and assumptions.

Now let it be noted that I was not the one saying that the Bible is misogynistic. While I think it is essentially true, I don't think it is the most suitable term. Yahweh is extremely cruel and vile to women, yes, but he is also cruel and vile to men. He might have taken it with women more than with men, but for the purpose of the matter in hand it is more fitting to say that the Bible is male chauvinistic.


Referring 1 Chorintians, it is true that the article you quote deals with ceremonial head coverings (apparently a matter of utmost importance) that gives different guidances to men and women (a clear sign of equality), and that is not one of the passages I would quote as especially misogynistic. However, since we're at it, verse 3 is a nice one:

Quote:
3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Yes, you have addressed this point earlier in the post. And I am willing to agree that those passages are not misogynistic. What they are, very clearly, is male chauvinistic. Paul preaches the Christian (here meaning specifically "of Christ") message of universal love. Yet these passages clearly put women in an inferior footing with respect to men.

As to the Deuteronomy passages, just as I said above, it is true that God doesn't treat women worse than men there. He just treats both of them like shit, in the most typical Yahwehian fashion. Talk about a powerful argument.

These were not my quotes, though. You know where (some of) mine are.
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Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).

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Old 11-22-2011, 03:21 PM   #117
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Remind me: What do you think of your English skills ?

Very good. Far better than most on here. The fact that I have small typos every now and then doesn't change that Also, I write fast, so the fact I don't have more typos is quite something
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:30 PM   #118
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:54 PM   #119
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Very good. Far better than most on here. The fact that I have small typos every now and then doesn't change that Also, I write fast, so the fact I don't have more typos is quite something
May I please ask you why you are so arrogant about your English skillzzz?

Arrogance is not a good thing, sir.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:11 PM   #120
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Not arrogant, just honest.
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