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Old 11-29-2011, 06:09 AM   #271
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
Why don't you read what Jesus did in the Temple with the money changers. Not a lot of cheek-turning there. Destroying scripture is as low as it can get.

I'm not here to educate you. Ask your friends about Jesus. Or read the Gospels. He demands total obedience, not this wishy-washy Christianity in vogue nowadays.


The only "version" that counts is the one that's backed up by scripture. Otherwise it's just whatever anyone pleases. Truth cannot be so fickle.



No, it isn't. It's false Christianity posing as the real thing. It's in many ways more dangerously deceptive than a crazy cult.



What makes you think I care?



What a morass of cliches. "Belief system," my own business, judgment, intolerance blablabla...

Hate means not telling hell-bound sinners they're going to hell and instead deluding them that it's all OK. It's not my "hate" that they need to deal with, it's God's wrath against unrepentant sinners.
Omg, it's alive. Back in time for the ACC I see.

I can't be botherd to respond to you. It's a waste of my time.
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:18 AM   #272
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Verd View Post
So the Bible isn't homophobic? Those verses in both the Old and New Testaments stating that gay sex is a sin doesn't exist? I'd like to read this New Majorly Abridged Version of the Bible you have in your possession.
The Bible is not homophobic. It's a book and therefore incapable of emotion. God is not homophobic since He has nothing to fear of His creation. God hates homosexuality, alongside a whole slew of other thoughts and behaviors.

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I quoted Leviticus 12 at you in which it clearly states that women who give birth to girl children are unclean for twice the time as they would be if they had given birth to boy children and require twice the time to pass before they can be purified. If people are so willfully obtuse as to argue that such laws are a matter of "~emissions~, not women" when there is a clear distinction being made throughout the Bible between the value of women vs. the value of men, it only shows how far some religious people are willing to twist their interpretation of their "Good Book" in order to fit their personal agenda.
Yes, the Bible distinguishes between men and women and gives primacy - on earth, but not in heaven - to men over women. Does that completely overturn your concept of the world? Does it make the universe shake? Why would a non-feminist perspective on gender mean the Bible is false? Just because you feel it to be so?

Quote:
If that isn't the "crux of Christianity," why do so many denominations cling to that gender distinction and use the Bible the back their position up? Just because some denominations are more willing to overlook such Bible passages for the sake of creating a more egalitarian interpretation of Christianity doesn't change the fact that the misogyny is right there, written into the book for any misogynist to take and use to justify their behavior as part of their faith. It's pretty hilarious how you keep arguing that it's the patriarchal culture of the time that the Bible was written that is to blame for any possible criticisms of Bible passages and yet at the same time refuse to believe that misogyny exists in the Bible. Double speak at its finest.
OK, you use the word "misogyny" a lot. Please point to where Jesus, Peter, Paul, or other NT figures hate women. The fact that women are not granted full equality in the earthly operations of the church does not mean that women are hated.

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You can whine all you want about the fact that the Bible does talk about strong female role models and talks about respecting women, and yes, that's true, all that is in the Bible. Doesn't change the fact that there are Actual Laws written down in the same book which clearly state the worth of a woman compared to that of a man. As you yourself said to Aloimeh, the roles assigned to men and women differ: there are very good reasons why many consider the narrow roles proscribed for women to be a product of sexism, and unlike you, they don't think that "much of this difference is biological" or that enforcing such roles are justifiable on biological grounds.
There are also places where Jews are placed above Gentiles. What about that? Does it disturb me? I'd be dishonest if I didn't say that ethnic favorites doesn't sit well with me, but I see the rationale of why God did things this way and while I can accept that the Jews are God's chosen people and have a special role in His plans for the world in a way that other peoples do not (and that's not to exclude that other peoples haven't had key roles in God's plan either, whether it be the Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Arabs, Greeks, Romans, Germans, Chinese, or whoever else), it says nothing about personal salvation. God is 100% egalitarian when it comes to who is saved vs. who is damned. It doesn't matter if you're Jewish or Gentile, man or woman, adult or child, educated or illiterate, or any other qualifier by which we divide humanity - all can accept salvation and share in eternal life.

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P.S. Your insinuation that Bible critics have no interest in a genuine understanding is pretty laughable; I was raised Christian, was a regular churchgoer, and was at the top of Bible study class consistently because I actually read the verses and wanted to know everything the book said. I left the religion at a young age because I actually read the verses and never got any answer to my questions that weren't filled with the type of apologist fallacies you're peddling. I have respect for progressive Christian denominations (of which there are plenty) that acknowledge the major flaws in the Bible, reject the passages that preach violence/misogyny/intolerance, and are able to view it as a text in its historical context. For Christians like you however who are hellbent on defending a horridly problematic book because they can't bear to see their Sacred Moral Guidebook actually called out for what it is, having a conversation is pointless.
My suspicion is that you are insulted by the Bible's censuring of your lifestyle and thus do nothing but look for reasons to reject it. OK, do what you will. It won't make the problem go away (of your sin, that is, and God's impending judgment).
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:19 AM   #273
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
Killing those who don't share one's beliefs is ideological and not religious. Religion is strictly private.

Islamism is not a religion, it's an ideology (I don't say Islam, out of carefulness).



I'm an anticlericalist Catholic but I don't think people who deviate the Christian message are Christian. Otherwise any liar can claim the Inquisition was Christian. Personally I have trouble in considering Calvinists as Christians.

It's not all a matter of interpretation.
While religion is private, proselytism is very much a part of certain religions. Of course, faith is private and Islam's and Catholicism's repeated attempts to enforce faith through extermination have been futile from the get-go.
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:24 AM   #274
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Yes, you have addressed this point earlier in the post. And I am willing to agree that those passages are not misogynistic. What they are, very clearly, is male chauvinistic. Paul preaches the Christian (here meaning specifically "of Christ") message of universal love. Yet these passages clearly put women in an inferior footing with respect to men.

As to the Deuteronomy passages, just as I said above, it is true that God doesn't treat women worse than men there. He just treats both of them like shit, in the most typical Yahwehian fashion. Talk about a powerful argument.

These were not my quotes, though. You know where (some of) mine are.
Again, so what? Why do you think this necessitates rejecting the Bible? Plenty of women accept that their position is not one of equality in the church with men. I as a Gentile accept that I am not a member of God's chosen people as a Jew would be. I also accept that I'm middle class and not rich. And average looking and not stunning.

Where is the logical connection that the Bible must be wrong? Where is your airtight proof that women must be equal in all aspects in life and that if a text doesn't espouse 100% equality it must be false and the God it talks about must not exist?

You're an utter fiasco at constructing a logical argument, Har-Tru.
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:33 AM   #275
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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How can you possibly say that faith did not motivate the Inquisition? It is so well documented. Whether or not you agree with their interpretation, it was religiously motivated. There are no ifs, ands, or buts.
The primary motivation was political, you dilettante.
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Nole fan: "...most Fedtards seem to be very rabid and rude." (I agree 100%)

You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:35 AM   #276
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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What if you support gay rights? Are you also a Christian then?
Possibly. It is possible to be doctrinally in error and still be a Christian. There's a fine line where doctrine becomes so corrupt that it's no longer Christianity. Most liberal denominations of Christianity are there already.

However, if you take the Bible to be God's word, it's pretty hard to support gay rights.
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:36 AM   #277
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Well, a curious thing; lookie here:



According to what you two say, Jesus here did what? Obviously he didn't do what Aloimeh's spiritual ancestors expected him to do, and you might even say he ignored and/or broke the law of the OT. Does that mean he's not a good Christian?
Where was the adulterous man?
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 06:38 AM   #278
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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and yet that's what you believe to be true?



I actually do want to go there, giving a satisfactory answer to such questions would really help

you can't believe in gay rights and worship the God of the OT at the same time, pretending to do so only adds to the reputation of theists for being nonsensical and hypocritical, when one can do so much better by believing in science, reason and things we actually do know to be true and good for us
Agreed. Orthodox Christianity and gay rights are incompatible.
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:31 AM   #279
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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So are you saying that everything that isn't palatable cannot be true? By your account death shouldn't be real either, but it is.
the cessation of life is a fact in our reality that we observe around us all the time and can be readily tested, the existence of the God of the OT isn't

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If God saw fit to punish the Canaanites as He did, well...that's up to Him. He is the Lord, not I.
there's no way I'd approve of such atrocities, therefore it's impossible for me to worship, love or follow such a god, I don't think a decent human being living in this day and age can do that

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How about you stop talking about me and deal instead with what's in the Bible and what it says about you?
why should I deal with a despicable book of fairy tales and historical accounts of mass murder, blasphemy/adultery stoning, approval of slavery, homophobia and women degradation again?
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:23 AM   #280
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

what a blight upon humankind this religion shit is... we should be so much more advanced than threads like this by now...

free, uncorrupted thought and unbiased learning suffocated for centuries..
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why are you so seriously
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:59 PM   #281
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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So what?

How is the Christian message feministic?




The quest for understanding is the quest for truth. It is no wonder that Christianity has been the major enemy of scientific endeavour, and hence of progress and advancement.
:snort: Except for the fact that most scientific endeavor and progress occurred in Christian civilizations, yeah, very much an enemy of progress.

You do realize that Isaac Newton wrote more on religion (for, not against, it), than he did physics?
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:02 PM   #282
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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The primary motivation was political, you dilettante.
Please elaborate.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:03 PM   #283
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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the cessation of life is a fact in our reality that we observe around us all the time and can be readily tested, the existence of the God of the OT isn't



there's no way I'd approve of such atrocities, therefore it's impossible for me to worship, love or follow such a god, I don't think a decent human being living in this day and age can do that



why should I deal with a despicable book of fairy tales and historical accounts of mass murder, blasphemy/adultery stoning, approval of slavery, homophobia and women degradation again?
That wasn't the point. The point was that you dismiss Christianity because you dislike what's written in the holy scriptures. You dislike the content. That is not a valid way of disproving a religion. You can do that by pointing out internal inconsistencies but not by pontificating on how you feel about something.

E.g. I can feel that Mohammed was a disgusting murderous pedophile, but that - in and of itself - is not proof against Islam. Stronger proof is the fact that he was a hypocrite and a revisionist, perpetrating horrific acts that went against some of his earlier sayings, which he justified by propping up new rules. Signs of a David Koresh-like cult.

I accept the judgments of the Old Testament. When God judges, that is not an atrocity. You don't have to love or follow God, but you will still face the consequences after you die.

Again, you bash the Bible because there are many brutal accounts in the Old Testament, only some of which occur by God's sanction. Where is the logical connection to it being false because you dislike the contents?
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You can bet Djokovic's mom just screamed "Another king is dead" right about now - in the remotest corner - of her bathroom - followed by "The other one is buried." (from tennisplanet.me, following Madrid 2011 Djokovic d. Nadal 7-5 6-4)
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:04 PM   #284
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
Possibly. It is possible to be doctrinally in error and still be a Christian. There's a fine line where doctrine becomes so corrupt that it's no longer Christianity. Most liberal denominations of Christianity are there already.

However, if you take the Bible to be God's word, it's pretty hard to support gay rights.
This is what we call the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy. You resort to it often.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:06 PM   #285
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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:snort: Except for the fact that most scientific endeavor and progress occurred in Christian civilizations, yeah, very much an enemy of progress.

You do realize that Isaac Newton wrote more on religion (for, not against, it), than he did physics?
Yes, back when religious faith was intellectually viable.
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