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Old 11-26-2011, 06:20 PM   #226
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
I skipped that yesterday (no time) but it reminds me of a scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade at the uni when Indy wrote the "FACTS" on the blackboard saying something like archeology is dealing facts and not truth, "if you want a lecture on truth, go to the philosophy department".

Facts are objective truthS. Not THE truth. Subjective truth also exists. The subjective truth can even be truer than the objective truth which is mainly a superficial truth.

---------
Expand, please.

You'll excuse me for not taking Indiana Jones as a source of authority.

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Okay I might have confused the term 'superstition' with 'fetishism'.

In this respect, my comparison is still right. I also fell off my chair when a Professor of mine at uni made the same comparison, but since then I've realized it's true.
How? How is it true?
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).

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Old 11-26-2011, 07:11 PM   #227
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

I just cannot stop at wonder at what seems so scary about certain folks being atheist - aka a non-believer in any supernatural force - to start with.
After all, those who claim to not believe, will end up in 'hell', anyways? So, please explain to me, you True Believers, what's so scary about me/us. Aren't we 'damned' anyways?

Confrontational, perhaps?

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Old 11-26-2011, 10:11 PM   #228
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Sunset of Age View Post
I just cannot stop at wonder at what seems so scary about certain folks being atheist - aka a non-believer in any supernatural force - to start with.
After all, those who claim to not believe, will end up in 'hell', anyways? So, please explain to me, you True Believers, what's so scary about me/us. Aren't we 'damned' anyways?

Confrontational, perhaps?

This is only Black and White in some religions Karin; I don't have a problem with someone choosing to be an atheist. What I do dislike is someone trying to shove their beliefs down others throats.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:26 PM   #229
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
I skipped that yesterday (no time) but it reminds me of a scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade at the uni when Indy wrote the "FACTS" on the blackboard saying something like archeology is dealing facts and not truth, "if you want a lecture on truth, go to the philosophy department".

Facts are objective truthS. Not THE truth. Subjective truth also exists. The subjective truth can even be truer than the objective truth which is mainly a superficial truth.
Rubbish. How can something be true for you and not for me? And that last sentence just blows my mind.

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If it were only that.
Stalin's Russia was a form of state worship. It had zero to do with atheism. Stalin was an atheist, but his actions had about as much to do with him having a moustache, as has been pointed out many times.

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It all started with the French Revolution (of 1792!), I guess.

Saying that the christianized world (pre-1792) was less freedom-friendly than the dechristianized world that followed, is not only not following me but also not following the facts.
You need to brush up on your history. Read up on the inquisition.

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You might wanna take conscription for example. For France, it was invented by the Convention and accepted by the dechristianized French people. Those who combatted it, Vendeans or Chouans, were massacred in unspeakable atrocities, by the "Realists" from the young French Republic. For sure, the Kings would have wished to have such absolute power but they never succeeded.

Conscription lasted during all of Buonaparte's Empire + the 3rd Republic in 1914. Is that what you call being free?
You haven't explained what any of this has to do with atheism/reason/science.

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If scientists invented (or whichever verb you like, no matter) Freedom, than they should be able to describe it positively. Not sure it is possible.

Bakhtin showed that Science had a monologic (single-voiced) discourse, opposed to dialogic discourses of carnivals.
Who said scientists invented freedom?
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:54 PM   #230
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by cobalt60 View Post
This is only Black and White in some religions Karin; I don't have a problem with someone choosing to be an atheist. What I do dislike is someone trying to shove their beliefs down others throats.
Well, I just wish it were only the case in 'some' religion's. I've experienced quite the opposite during my lifetime.

Fully agree with your second sentence, it's all a matter of mutual respect, or rather, "Live and let Live".
I just don't understand what's so difficult to grasp about that, unless one's a zealot for whatever a cause.

Yep I admit I've expressed my utter disapproval for certain Bible texts in this thread. If you would like to understand why - I do not see any difference between condemning 'gays' to death, as that Bible text in fact does, and condemning 'blacks', 'women', or whatever a 'lower kind of human species'.
That certain bible text goes against MY personal morals, and as such, I fight it whereever I can. This including ripping out those dreadful texts thenever I come across them. If doing so makes me 'evil', than so be it.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:13 PM   #231
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Well Karin- here is why I choose this movement. (If you consider the Bible as a text written by whomever at a certain time and choose to interpret it for one's own time)

What is Reform Judaism?

Throughout history, Jews have remained firmly rooted in Jewish tradition, even as we learned much from our encounters with other cultures. Nevertheless, since its earliest days, Reform Judaism has asserted that a Judaism frozen in time is an heirloom, not a living fountain. The great contribution of Reform Judaism is that it has enabled the Jewish people to introduce innovation while preserving tradition, to embrace diversity while asserting commonality, to affirm beliefs without rejecting those who doubt and to bring faith to sacred texts without sacrificing critical scholarship.

Reform Judaism affirms the central tenets of Judaism - God, Torah and Israel - even as it acknowledges the diversity of Reform Jewish beliefs and practices. We believe that all human beings are created in the image of God, and that we are God’s partners in improving the world. Tikkun olam — repairing the world — is a hallmark of Reform Judaism as we strive to bring peace, freedom and justice to all people.

Reform Jews accept the Torah as the foundation of Jewish life containing God’s ongoing revelation to our people and the record of our people’s ongoing relationship with God. We see the Torah as God inspired, a living document that enables us to confront the timeless and timely challenges of our everyday lives.

In addition to our belief that Judaism must change and adapt to the needs of the day to survive and our firm commitment to Tikkun Olam, the following principles distinguish Reform Jews from other streams of Judaism in North America.

Reform Jews are committed to the principle of inclusion, not exclusion. Since 1978 the Reform Movement has been reaching out to Jews-by-choice and interfaith families, encouraging them to embrace Judaism. Reform Jews consider children to be Jewish if they are the child of a Jewish father or mother, so long as the child is raised as a Jew.

Reform Jews are committed to the absolute equality of women in all areas of Jewish life. We were the first movement to ordain women rabbis, invest women cantors and elect women presidents of our synagogues.

Reform Jews are also committed to the full participation of gays and lesbians in synagogue life as well as society at large."
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:31 PM   #232
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Your post may well explain why I usually get on with 'modern' jews pretty well, Sue.

As I do with about any religious person, as long as all respect the different opinions on beliefs - this including those who have no belief at all.
It still comes down to 'live-and-let-live', and 'do whatever makes you happy, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else' to me.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:35 PM   #233
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by cobalt60 View Post
This is only Black and White in some religions Karin; I don't have a problem with someone choosing to be an atheist. What I do dislike is someone trying to shove their beliefs down others throats.
When was the last time you saw atheists going house by house preaching their thing? Picketing in churches to stop believers from having their religious office? Saying all believers are bad, inmoral people who deserve eternal punishment? All of those things are done by religious people regularly.

I struggle to find examples of atheists trying to shove their beliefs down other people's throats. Unless you consider defending one's position and trying to politely convince others of one's views shoving one's beliefs down others' throats, which I don't think you do.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:10 AM   #234
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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When was the last time you saw atheists going house by house preaching their thing? Picketing in churches to stop believers from having their religious office? Saying all believers are bad, inmoral people who deserve eternal punishment? All of those things are done by religious people regularly.

I struggle to find examples of atheists trying to shove their beliefs down other people's throats. Unless you consider defending one's position and trying to politely convince others of one's views shoving one's beliefs down others' throats, which I don't think you do.
I never stated atheist's do that. My second sentence was in general terms. I am not a believer in proselytizing.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:23 AM   #235
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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I never stated atheist's do that. My second sentence was in general terms. I am not a believer in proselytizing.
I know you didn't, but many people (including people on this thread) do and I felt the need to make the statement. I have no problem with what I call passive proselytism, that is trying to defend your beliefs and convince others of your views in a propitious environment. It seems to me an only logical course of action, be your points what they may.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:46 AM   #236
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
When was the last time you saw atheists going house by house preaching their thing? Picketing in churches to stop believers from having their religious office? Saying all believers are bad, inmoral people who deserve eternal punishment? All of those things are done by religious people regularly.

I struggle to find examples of atheists trying to shove their beliefs down other people's throats. Unless you consider defending one's position and trying to politely convince others of one's views shoving one's beliefs down others' throats, which I don't think you do.
José's claim is perfecty right.
Never ever have I've seen folks blowing up houses, condemning gay people and deny women their claim to just be able to live their lives in whatever way they want, in other words, not dismiss their rights to live their lives in peace and allow them to have a sexual life of their own - in name of atheism. NEVER.

My major question to so-called religious people: why care about us 'heretics' so much? Are you frightened, or what? Why just not allow us disbelievers to live our lives like we do, in peace, without any bothering us about a possible afterlife, which we don't believe in? What's your bother, to start with?
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:22 AM   #237
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:36 AM   #238
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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My major question to so-called religious people: why care about us 'heretics' so much? Are you frightened, or what? Why just not allow us disbelievers to live our lives like we do, in peace, without any bothering us about a possible afterlife, which we don't believe in? What's your bother, to start with?
From where do you get this harrassment? Apart from the built in cultural nods to religion, like National Anthems, public prayers etc, I am not aware of anyone trying to prohibit me living my life like I do. I don't think anyone has ever bothered me about a possible afterlife.

And if you live in Holland I would have thought that would be the last place you would be bothered.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:43 AM   #239
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From where do you get this harrassment? Apart from the built in cultural nods to religion, like National Anthems, public prayers etc, I am not aware of anyone trying to prohibit me living my life like I do. I don't think anyone has ever bothered me about a possible afterlife.
You said it yourself already.
My main problem is about 'religious' folks claming to have 'higher morals', which is complete rubbish and which I see happening all too often.

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And if you live in Holland I would have thought that would be the last place you would be bothered.
You obviously have no idea at all about my country. I consider this a bit of an insult, to be honest.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:45 AM   #240
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From where do you get this harrassment? Apart from the built in cultural nods to religion, like National Anthems, public prayers etc, I am not aware of anyone trying to prohibit me living my life like I do. I don't think anyone has ever bothered me about a possible afterlife.

And if you live in Holland I would have thought that would be the last place you would be bothered.
Well, if you don't experience it I guess it must not exist. Go through the links I provided to you. Do you live in the southern states?

By the way, you do realise that Theo van Gogh was murdered in Holland, right?
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